I have been thinking a lot about our disagreement, and the resolution, and what that means for us. It has been rare that there was no place where Grant and I could see eye to eye. Even when I read his comment yesterday to An ‘Unfair’ Spanking” post, I thought…“No, there was not heavy traffic. It was completely safe to pull over. And our son was car sick. He should have done as I asked this time.” But I also trust Grant enough to know he sees it as he is saying, and that his vision of the right and necessary thing to do is just different from mine. Usually, after I am calm, I can at least see it from his perspective. I can’t this time. We just disagree. How can that be? And how do you survive these unresolved conflicts in marriage? Often they are small, but just the tip of the iceberg of what lies beneath.
I am sure we are all familiar with the story of two blind men asked to describe an elephant. One touches and describes the tail, the other the trunk. They both will swear the elephant is completely different, and just as they ‘see’ it. They each know they are right. And they are. Each has just experienced the elephant! Sometimes even the very best of relationships is like that. Those are the times when the trust and love are most essential.
I think not all marriages are made up of two people who are as different as Grant and I. He is a man and I am a woman. He tends to see the trees first and I tend to see the forest first. He is more conservative and I am more liberal. We came from different socio-economic backgrounds, different religious upbringings, even different cultures. It is not hard to imagine that there would be places where we do not see things the same. What we have in common are many interests, fundamental values, and a tremendous love for each other. Very often our differences delight, and sometimes they frustrate and cause friction. Sometimes I get spanked.
What I have found, we have found I think, is that these differences can cause us to stand apart within our marriage, two people who love each other but do not agree, or we can use the tools we have to allow us to stand together, in disagreement occasionally, but very much together. For us, that is what Domestic Discipline has been about. The process and function of DD is about establishing values and rules, and enforcing them for the purpose of keeping us a very connected couple. I spent the first 20 years of our marriage being right all the time. It got lonely.
Right or wrong, spanking puts an end to an argument…if you let it. Here, if it didn’t, Grant would spank again. That has happened before, too. There is no amount of spanking that will change anyone’s mind, prove a point or make the HoH right. I don’t believe spanking for discipline is effective at any time if there is a not lot of communication. If the spanker hasn’t explained thoroughly why he is punishing, if the spankee hasn’t had a chance to say her piece and felt heard, and IMO, if she does not willingly submit. Once that has happened, spanking is a tool in the tool chest to emphasis the Dominant’s displeasure with his submissive, to ritually reenact their agreed upon roles in the relationship. They each take their place in the spanking and act out the whole dynamic in a very basic and primal way. For my part it involves taking the spanking, the pain, accepting his right to administer that. I try to open my mind and heart to him at that time, to let him in. Almost always that has meant some level of agreement on the issue at hand comes about, and some degree of accepting responsibility for my actions or behavior that caused Grant to feel I should be punished. In the process I feel remorse, punishment and then forgiveness.
I know Grant takes his role as HoH incredibility seriously. He has never truly punished in anger, and without giving a lot of thought to the situation. He says he does not like punishing me any more than I like being punished. Spanking for stress relief, or for fun, is very very different from causing or receiving pain when things are upset between you. I never go into a punishment spanking easily, but instead with distress and some fear. Never fear of him, but of the pain, yes. The pain is different in punishment, in no small part because it is more, with no warm up, but also because of the emotional place I am in, I think. It’s not fun or pleasant or easy, ever. I believe it can be hard for Grant too.
However, when the dust clears, what is left is the fact that we developed a relationship dynamic that began with learning about Domestic Discipline, and has evolved into a version of that which fits us, who and how we are, that works for us. There is no amount of pain in a spanking that can match the pain of the discord we felt when our roles were not defined. As hard as it is intellectually and emotionally at times to submit my will to him, my decisions to him, to make my vision of what should be second to his when we cannot agree, it has made for a wonderful marriage. Multiple people from the outside have asked how we do it (we’re not telling!) They have commented on how amazing it is, and how rare, that a couple married almost 24 years are still in love. We loved each other but were not in love four years ago. We were divorcing.
I am a very independent and self-sufficient woman. I am well-educated and well paid. I am a top executive. I make decisions with impact; manage lots of people, deal with big budgets and ‘important’ people. Why ever would I allow my husband to spank me over an argument about pulling over the car? Why would I concede that power I have in the outside world to my husband in our home? Because it works. Because it keeps us strong and connected and intimate as a couple. Because as much as a leader I am in the world, I can’t respect my man if he lets me be the leader in the marriage. Because I need this
Hi Sara:
I think I will put your blog on my list of required reading for me husband. I guess required would be too strong a word, perhaps “suggested reading please?”. My husband and I also come from diverse backgrounds, and as it is a second marriage for both of us, it has made married life very very complex. Over the past few years with various health stresses and family issues, we had become very separate. I was trying to find a way to feel connected with him again. I also felt that with all of the disagreeing I had done with him, that I had somehow stripped him of his empowerment in our lives together. I already in these beginnings of our journey feel renewed energy in our time together and most importantly in him. I think he feels more energy and better about “us”. There is truly something magical in surrender. I certainly think it is very very difficult for me (I am a very controlling being) to surrender, but when I can, it does wonders for both of us. I also appreciated reading Grant’s comment in “An UnFair Spanking” The statement he made about security issues being non-negotiable, was really important to me.There is a power and authority from that statement that is extremely comforting and appealing to me.
So again as always Thank You Sara for sharing.
Andrades Girl
Dear Readers,
If there is great disagreement and no compromise from either person, it is necessary to work through the rare case thoughtfully.
Since Sara and I agreed in this instance that there was no point of agreement at any place in the argument, I decided to punish. We agreed long ago when no compromise was apparent, I would make the determination; not that I was right, but that I am the one responsible for making sure the argument goes away.
I punished because I really truly believed that pulling a car over and allowing my nauseous son to try to re-enter 3 lanes of rush-hour traffic was foolish and unsafe. I also gave the option to wait until we arrived at the restaurant parking lot to change drivers. That was responded to with the look of an angry villain. Nice.
Sara perceived this completely differently then I did. I respect that. But the ensuing argument kept us in turmoil for too long.
My point is that this was a situation where turning to our tried and true rituals was necessary to get us back on the right track. I decided this because I know that our rituals have always kept us in sync.
Sometimes, even if there is a possibility that it is unearned, spanking will unite us, give us back some intimacy and also allow us to work through a silly argument by the solemn and sacred ritual of our power exchange. It gives us a new perspective and allows me, at least, to discard any bad feelings that are hanging on regarding the disagreement.
Keep your rituals, especially in difficult times. Never abandon your routine just because your are mad at your spouse…that is the time routines are most needed.
Men, it is up to us to maintain structure, work through the emotions to clarity of thought in dealing with our Angels, and to keep the traditions we develop intact under all circumstances. That is called Love and Caring. I know you know this, but I just wanted to say it.
The Best of Holidays to All,
Grant
Sara,
I always appreciate your thoughtful posts, but the posts about the “unfair punishment” and this one well articulates why an intelligent, independent woman would want DD in her marriage. As you said, the reality is not always perfect. But the benefit is well worth it.
I could relate to your statement when you said,
“I spent the first 20 years of our marriage being right all the time. It got lonely.”
Being right and having “perfect fairness” is overrated, isn’t it? Because in marriage, what matters is that we are connected and intimately bonded in love.
Sara –
Here’s yet another household in turmoil over the issue of who ultimately has the decision making authority when it comes to the children…
I find that very interesting.
I don’t have children in residence with me anymore. My two are entirely grown and on their own, so I don’t face the “catch-point” that mothers with children still in the home AND a power dynamic come to with regard to their children. It seems to me that, while it is a relatively simple thing for us to place our own lives in the hands of a dominant man, it is an entirely different matter for us to allow our children’s lives to be held and guided by those same hands. And, as your case illustrates, that is true even when that man is the father of those very same children…
I am wondering if this is THE place where the two of you can come to this sort of standoff, or are there other things that inspire the same passionate sense of “I’m right and he’s wrong?”
swan
Very thought provoking post.
So much of what you have shared about your past and your marriage (different backgrounds, always wanting to be right, etc.) is so like my own that I can easily relate.
I would very much like my husband to consciously and actively take a greater role as HoH, and I have tried to do what I can to nurture his natural dominance and leadership. I have made the choice to accept his decision as the final one, and try to do so with grace. Not always easy. I was raised to be strong and independent, and I can hold my own when needed. We don’t practice DD (his decision) but my acknowledgement of the D/s nature of our relationship has helped us through difficult times (which do not happen near as often) and has brought us closer.
I am grateful that you and Grant take the time to share the ups and the downs of your relationship. It is inspiring and insightful.
Robin
Sara and Grant- I truly appreciate being able to read both of your thoughts on this last disagreement and the subsequent spanking(s). You both make the compelling argument that you are committed to one another above and beyond any momentary loss of a united perspective and you both make a good case for DD and for honoring the roles that work on good days, even when it’s a bad day. It’s very telling that people will ask how you two stay in love after 24 years. That means that you radiate a joy and satisfaction with one another that is truly out of the ordinary. Mac and I have moved so much closer to creating that same type of relationship over the last year and this blog has been a large part of our learning curve. Thank you so much.
Marie
Hello!
I have just entered the world of domestic discipline. I found your website yesterday and find it honest and well written. since my fiancé and I have just started this lifestyle, I have yet to recieve a spanking though i have had a few writing assingments for disrespect and disobedience (snapping at him, not following with things such as eating right, etc) we decided to hold off on spanking at first just to get comfortable with our roles but he has just announced to me that from today on they will not only be incorporated, but also the most used form of discipline. Because we don’t wish for anyone in our families or friends to know, I have felt very lonely and am hoping to find an internett group to connect to. I just felt like introducing myself, sorry if I completely bored you! Thank you for this site it has offered me much support.
-Allison
Sara,
Hmmmm,
“Standing together in disagreement”, with or without spanking this would seem to be key to any successful relationship. The ability to look, see and look away as it were. Accepting the differences we all have with other human beings. Within a personal relationship obviously this can become the point were individuals stake their claims and are willing to sacrifice all on the altar of pride. The need to be right. However, I suspect that their is not so much a need to be right, as a desire to be right. And I believe that because you are heard and respected; and because you both work diligently towards reaffirming each other, you have been able to submit to these occurences despite the various pains: emotional, spiritual, physical, that result. You can release the need to be right, however difficult that release is in the moment, bcause you are reaffirmed and secure in your value to Grant.
I cannot speak as a mother since I do not have children, I can speak as a career woman in a position of authority. No one rises to authority without some sense of competitiveness and the ability to make sound decisions. What is ceded in this relationship dynamic is the right to have final say in these situations. One of the primary skills we wield everyday. Then, when the emotions associated with maternal instinct, raised voices and fatigue are introduced; this dispute seems bound to erupt.
Even the threat of corporal punishment, coupled with the inability to be the final arbiter of whether or not said punishment takes place, does not disuade the lioness from scratching the grass. So deciding to disagree is inherently risky because it can trigger any number of ingrained responses that result in punishable behavior.
“Right or wrong, spanking puts an end to an argument…if you let it. Here, if it didn’t, Grant would spank again.” Interesting comment. You indicated that you worked very hard to put the incident behind you, to no longer be angry about the interaction — Grant, however, saw the incident as singular and punishable. Not about the heat or the anger apparently but about your particular response. The united front thing — we have been here before. The circumstances and history surrounding the event are the same, your feelings are the same — your actions are punishable. I have a temper and am sensitive too — I am going to respond to a raised voice without the added incentive of a sick child no matter what. Is this something that is avoidable (i.e. stop yelling at me) or is this your relational flash-point eternally?
“There is no amount of spanking that will change anyone’s mind, prove a point or make the HoH right. I don’t believe spanking for discipline is effective at any time if there is a not lot of communication. If the spanker hasn’t explained thoroughly why he is punishing, if the spankee hasn’t had a chance to say her piece and felt heard, and IMO, if she does not willingly submit. Once that has happened, spanking is a tool in the tool chest to emphasis the Dominant’s displeasure with his submissive,”
Why do you guys seem to be in-synch when so many couples seem so random in their DD? Even when you disagree about the punishment? Yes, each relationship is different, but there is disorder in the court in the land of DD. And not just amongst the newbies either,,, You pattern a behavior of thoughtful consideration not seen amongst many bloggers. There is sacrifice on both parts — not a perverted sense of entitlement and raging irresponsibility; emotionally manipulation is kept at bay. As such, I can identify a number of points in your statement that highlights why you succeed, even when you disagree.
Firstly, no one is trying to change anyones deeply ingrained personal beliefs. Your mind and life-experiences are yours and they form you. Love me, love my liberal-leaning tendencies as it were. Many times, in the land of DD make-believe there are couples engaged in trench warfare over each others belief systems and opinions. It is not a sign of disrespect to hold alternate views. It is a sign of disrespect to disparage someone elses views or disparage the person. It is disrespectful to personally insult your partner or make inflamatory or provocative statements to initiate a confrontation.
Secondly, your interactions are approached from a place of respect and duty to each other. And please do not think I am diminishing the simmering anger that precedes a decision to punish, I am not. Nor the raised voices, nor the pounding headache or any of the events that surround this type of activity. It is just hard to explain in fewer than ten-thousand words how you can fight with and for someone simultaneously. There is a degree of respect when the person holding the paddle says to the person about to be struck with the paddle — ‘here are my thoughts and I want to hear yours’. And there is a deep degree of respect when the person about to be hit with the paddle says to the person wielding the paddle, ‘I disagree with you in this instance, but I have agreed with you in this process so I will yield to you despite the fact that I am firmly against this activity’.
And lastly, the old bugaboo, fairness. You were not arguing with yourself. Let’s sit that elephant down on the sofa and have a cup of tea for a minute. You felt totally provoked. Went to bat for your child — seriously now — getting punished for that? What to do, what to do? Hmmmmm, you honor your word.
More than anything — you, and Grant honor your commitment to each other. I do not care if you never step on the elliptical and that you internalize that as a lack of discipline and self-control. The truth of the matter is that when the going gets rough and you are ready to scratch his eyes out, question his lineage and advise him to procreate with himself as you storm out the door — you don’t. You state your case and then you yield the high ground. I cannot begin to imagine how difficult that must be for you. Particularly knowing what is yet to come.
Fairness, there is no equal event scheduled for him,,,,no, there isn’t. Not in this dynamic, that is called the Spencer Plan and it can be located on a different blog. Nope, the only one paying the piper, or the spanker as it were, is you. This is the life you have chosen — and it works because you yield the high ground again and again. Where I come from, we call it living out your faith; walking the talk. You have said what you intend to do, how you intend to live — and you do just that, despite a very serious cost. Many women, fight and fuss on their way, you do not. You do not disrespect yourself and more importantly — despite the circumstances before you, you do not disrespect him.
I believe in the mind of the HOH they do not recognize this event as a question of fairness so much as a question of duty and responsibility. The mature HOH, who has committed himself to his wife and to this life-pattern has no choice but to respond under the circumstances. Even when they have contributed to the event. Even when there is no meeting of the minds on the circumstances or the ultimate responsibility. As much as I hate to say this — and I reeeaaallllllyyyyy hate to say this, he is obligated by his commitment to follow through.
The mature HOH has indicated that he is assuming the mantle of leader in his home, he accepts the responsibility for maintaining open and active lines of communication and he accepts the responsibility for being the decider of punishable events within the relationship. He is obligated to be consistent. He is also responsible for monitoring, managing and meeting an even higher standard of behavior himself, than that required of his loyal troops. And occasionally, IMHO, they get it wrong. It still does not relieve them of the responsibility associated with the role. He is therefore required to punish, despite our eloquent, Lincolnesque arguments to the contrary because he has assumed that responsibility. This is not about fair — this is about his commitment, and I daresay they will never yield on the point of fairness.
That being said, the mature HOH recognizes the responsibility of his role and the danger of absolute power corrupting absolutely. It is only through thoughtful application and personal self-control that any man grows to the point of earning the trust necessary within his spouse that allows her to yield the high ground.
You do not have to travel far within the blogosphere to find any number of couples who have not decided to approach this DD thing solemly and with thoughtful consideration. So they flail within ineffectual DD partnerships of their own creation. Every DD is not the same, but whatever DD they select, it is time for many people, who curse the fates for their ineffectual relationships to ‘man-up’, and make it work.
“I try to open my mind and heart to him at that time, to let him in. Almost always that has meant some level of agreement on the issue at hand comes about, and some degree of accepting responsibility for my actions or behavior that caused Grant to feel I should be punished. In the process I feel remorse, punishment and then forgiveness.”
Hmmmm, the evolution of thought, not the breaking of spirit,,, good deal.
“Because as much as a leader I am in the world, I can’t respect my man if he lets me be the leader in the marriage. Because I need this”
Yes, the boundaries, the accountability, the ‘how we behave in this marriage’ rules. And the expectation that there is someone who is as invested in your realtionship as you are — who is willing to exhibit his commitment to you, especially in this way.
‘Show me you love me, paddle my bumm’, lololol,
Be Well,
Pretty
PS, nah, the spell-check isn’t working here either but I did review this one before posting so as to not appear completely illiterate, lolol, P
Hi Sara,
I have been thinking about these two posts for a couple of days now and trying to decide how I felt about them. I wanted to think for awhile before responding since I have always had a problem taking an unfair spanking and I didn’t want that to cloud my thoughts on your situation. In your place, I would not have taken the spanking if I did not think it was fair. You and Grant have a different type of relationship than I do and I wanted to try and approach this from your point of view.
But, honestly, I am still unclear on why you were spanked. Maybe I am just missing something, but I don’t understand on why you two need to agree on this situation. Why can’t you agree to disagree and let it go? You seemed clear to let the argument go and not rehash it until Grant brought it back up. This situation seems like one that is very uncommon in your relationshio; if this was a scenario that came up often, I could see the need to settle it once and for all but it doesn’t seem as likely that you will have issues with traffic and a car sick son on a frequent basis.
But, that’s just the way I see it and I could be misunderstanding the situation. If it works for you two, then of course I think you should keep doing it. I just don’t see the relevance.
Love you guys and your blog!
Random thoughts on the subject, not necessarily on your particular encounter…
Having also been in this situation in the past (more than once, actually), I am really glad you are writing about the times where it isn’t clear to you that you’ve broken a ‘rule’, but you still end up getting a spanking.
In my relationship, it often turns out to go something like this. Something happens, we disagree. We discuss it, sometimes loudly. He gets my viewpoint. He makes a decision I do not agree with. That’s all well and good. However, the problem actually happens at the *next* stage, when I do not accept his decision and get on with my life (as, for you, when you arrived at the restaurant). *Then* I am sure to be staring at the carpet – not for disagreeing, but for not letting go and submitting to the decision he’s made. Arguing about the spanking that follows instead of submitting to it graciously is definitely not going to be appreciated at my house, either.
Indeed, at a certain point, we’re no longer keeping our part of the DD arrangement – how fair is that to our husbands? I mean, should we ask them to lead our marriage and then fight them when they do? Of course, we each have to identify that point at which we are challenging the arrangement and the authority, rather than simply standing up for ourselves and our opinions. That’s going to be different for each of our relationships.
I did notice that before the spanking, Grant stopped to ask if Sara was objecting to the spanking or to the entire arrangement. I think that’s so very important, that we (as submissive partners) have a way to express our dissatisfaction with the spanking and situation without resorting to dramatic scenes or inciting the other partner’s anger.
Of course, Chris and I are both sensitive to having our decisions that involve the princess questioned by the other. Too sensitive, probably. I try very hard not to prod that potential beast and so does he, but it’s there.
Good luck,
sparkle
Dear All,
Thank you for the extremely thoughtful and insightful comments. They are so well put together and helpful.
I would respond to many of the ideas presented, but I thought I would stick to one point made by Pretty DD Girl:
“Why do you guys seem to be in-synch when so many couples seem so random in their DD? Even when you disagree about the punishment?”
The answer to your question about us being “so in-synch” lies within your question: We are not random about our DD relationship. Randomness is a recipe for failure in any endeavor whether it be making a career, building a relationship or playing a sport – they all require a serious, consistent commitment to the task at hand. The one thing I know that is most important to Sara is my consistency – right or wrong, good days or bad days, the constant arc of commitment must go on. The odds are in our favor that most things will turn out right because we continue to adhere to some basic fundamentals of DD: Ritualized Intimacy, Trust of Partner Motives, and Submission to Our Agreement to act according to our Pre-Defined Roles.
I know many HOH’s struggle with these three elements of DD. I am hoping I can do some more writing on them soon. However, understanding and strict adherence to a winning formula is why my New York Giants are winning again!
Had to get that in there! But I think you men know what I mean.
The Happiest of Peaceful Holidays,
Grant
Grant,
I’m still a newbie at this DD stuff with several false starts, so your comments on the fundamentals of DD: Ritualized Intimacy, Trust of Partner Motives, and Submission to Our Agreement to act according to our Pre-Defined Roles seemed to hit home with me. I’d really appreciate it if you could expand on these comments
Ci
Dear Ci,
I will be glad to expand, but I need some time. Very busy at the moment–thank you for your comment!
The Best of Holidays to you and your Family,
Grant
Andrades, I agree that “there is something magical in surrender”. It changes the relationship for you both. Good luck!
hisdove, I do think it is a matter of priorities. My marriage comes first, and that has made all the difference.
Swan, it is a good question and I had to think about it and even asked Grant. We agree there is no other place where we sometimes just cannot agree. Truly, there is nothing else I care enough about to not give in. Having kids at home changes things. Something I will try to write more about soon.
Pretty, wow! I am going to write a longer answer to you. Thank you for your thoughtful comments and questions.