A DD Question – Should a Dominant Respect His Submissive?
This started as a response to a DD question, one on dominant men and what respect they owe their submissive, but took me elsewhere entirely. It made me think about Domestic Discipline and abuse, and where I firmly believe the lines must be drawn
Sara,
You wrote, “it occurred to me to stand in the corner. I should explain that here ‘corner time’ is not something we have used for punishment. That was Grant’s decision a long time ago, because he did not feel comfortable with it. As you negotiate your way through possibilities, both partners will come across hard lines, things they have a personal discomfort with. This is one for him, and we are of the opinion that those sorts of boundaries need to be respected.”
My question is, does this go both ways? I am not speaking of basic spanking and spanking implements. If a couple is in a power exchange relationship that has a disciplinary component there has to be ’something’ that serves as the punishment process. I mean requirements or activities that are seen by you as offensive, disrespected or demeaned.
There is the component of consensual non-consent, however, if a person feels that a particular activity is disturbing does the dominant partner have a responsibility to accommodate and respect those feelings? Do you have the ability to refuse specific disciplinary activities, not punishment/disciplinary events, activities or are you compelled to submit to all activities as he decides?
Pretty
From Grant: I never would do anything to demean, disrespect or offend Sara. Now, are there things I require that she does not like to do? Yes. For instance, cleaning up her many piles of paper that make me feel like our home is out of control. Of course when you live with other people it is not only courtesy, but essential to compatibility that you do not allow your “things” to dominate the household. Other requirements aside from health and safety items might be for Sara to dress well (not all the time) but I simply do not like unkempt.
“There is the component of consensual non-consent, however, if a person feels that a particular activity is disturbing does the dominant partner have a responsibility to accommodate and respect those feelings?”
Yes, I feel the Dominant partner has an obligation to accommodate and respect those feelings. I will insist on certain things, as long as I do not feel it would be demeaning, disrespectful or offensive to Sara.“Do you have the ability to refuse specific disciplinary activities, not punishment/disciplinary events, activities or are you compelled to submit to all activities as he decides?”
Sara is compelled to submit to all activities I decide for her. However, remember that I will never require her to be disrespected, demeaned or offended. I would never ask her to do things that I know would hurt her. The Dominant partner must hold his submissive partner in the utmost respect and love. Never should they forget their precious responsibility to keep the TRUST that is given them.
G.
I am going to add my two cents here. Every person, and every couple, defines what would be offensive or demeaning differently. There are people who are aroused by the idea of humiliation. Being called “slut” or being publically embarrassed is part of their fantasy life. They then might incorporate some aspect of that into their dynamic, and they are happy with that. I feel each couple must do what works for them…for BOTH of them.
There is a difference between being compelled or pushed towards a boundary that feel frightening or difficult., and one that is abhorant and distrubing. That is one of many reasons why the dominat has to know his submissive very well, and why the submissive needs to believe she can trust him. We don’t even have a safe word, and never have. He KNOWS me, reads me, watches me and hears me. I also know I could put a stop to anything at any time. I never would abuse that, go back on my word to him, and thus he knows 100% if I called a halt to something I would have to be in true distress. My submission is expected, required, and still, of my free will, consented to at once. If it were taken and not given, it would not be much of a gift, would it?
On the other hand, there are sites like Loving Domestic Discipline which have gone way off into left field. I have kept the link because there is a lot of good information, particularly in the earlier writings. However, Mr. LDD now advocates, in his Advanced LDD book, tying your wife to a tree and urinating on her as a means to humiliate her and help her find her submissive self. That’s just a load of garbage. If you happen to be into that sort of kink, like Mr. LDD is, go for it. However, that has nothing to do with Loving Domestic Discipline, but rather with urine play. Similarly, there is a Christian Domestic Discipline forum recently advocating the disregard of consent after marriage, proclaiming that once consent is given, the wife has no say, no right to refuse anything her husband decides to do to her, and frankly, that’s called abuse in any religion. WWJD…beat his wife against her will? Humilate her in front of others? Treat her in a way that made her feel degraded? Hmmm….Nah! I think not.
It concerns me highly that the idea of DD can be used as a vehicle to attempt to legitimize the abusive treatment of women. If the Loving part of Domestic Discipline does not override all other aspects of the relationship, then there is no place for DD there at all.
“If a couple is in a power exchange relationship that has a disciplinary component there has to be ’something’ that serves as the punishment process. I mean requirements or activities that are seen by you as offensive, disrespected or demeaned.”
No. Actually, none of those things occur, even as part of the punishment process. I have been humbled, but never humiliated. I have been spanked, but never disrespected or demeaned. In fact, Grant is very careful to say and show me that he values and respects me. He never punishes in anger, and my emotional well being is always carefully considered. I think, actually, if a woman ‘needs’ to be severely punished, or even punished often, there is something very wrong; something in the relationship, or in the individual. The truth is that punishment does not effect change. Attitude effects change. Punishment works for me as a reminder of what I need to address, and allows us to process issues between us in our marriage. Unless I have made a decision to cooperate, no amount of spanking will move me. My husband has never tried to frighten or intimidate me, but rather to affect a process that brings us together and allows us to work through conflicts.
The reality of my life is that my husband treats me wonderfully. In small ways he is attentive and protective and romantic. In larger ways he cares for my happiness, along with my emotional and physical well being with great focus. He sincerely respects me. Neither my husband nor I think that he is the leader in our marriage is because he is smarter, nor because he is a better person, more capable or even right more often. We don’t even believe our arrangement is decreed by God. We live this way because it makes sense to us, and it has worked to create a more peaceful and loving marriage. I do serve him, and he serves me as well. We are equal in value while unequal in power. I cannot imagine submitting to a man who did not hold me in such esteem. I beleive I deserve that from him! Every woman should hold herself in enough high enough esteem that she should expect respect and kindness from her man.
When I look at my own life, and when I look at others on forums and blogs, I ultimately measure things by the general wellbeing of the individuals in the relationship. For the woman I ask, does she feel valued, respected, loved and cherished? Is her life enhanced? Is she becoming more self confident over time? Is her self-respect increasing? Is she growing as a person and a wife? Can she say NO and be heard if she needs to? If the answer to all those things is not YES, then the Domestic Discipline at best is flawed and at worst is abusive.
Amber said,
June 16, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I have to laugh at the LDD guy now recommending tying the woman to a tree and peeing on her to make her compliant, ahahaha! That guy always seemed odd to me anyway. So serious and pompous and overly-formal. But so many sites like that did/do.
There was another guy who was offering advice on DD-D/s on a blog(s), years ago, women had to address him in comments as Mr. Whatever and he was supposedly married for many years to this amazing wife who did everything he said, was beautiful and perfect and he blah blah. He wrote all the time about how to treat a women so she’ll be obedient and women in his comments would leave these hysterically funny deeply reverent comments, like, “Oh Mr. So-and-So, I just LOVE the way you write, please, sir, could you answer this question for me” gush gush and he would deign to do so and the ladies would be all a-flutter but then he screwed up on their ages or he somehow tripped himself up and made a major mistake in the story he’d created and and it was just pretty funny. So many sites like those are just complete and utter BS.
Some women still kept going there, though. Unless they were his own comments. It never fails to amuse me when I see submissive women treating men they know *nothing* about with the kind of respect I would only show my husband or someone I knew was worthy of such reverence. Not some online guy they’d never heard of before and would never meet.
The LDD guy always reminded me of that guy. Just so over-the-top full of himself.
Anyway, I agree with you that if there is not respect and growth and general wellbeing, that should be addressed. And I understand the appeal of humiliation and I enjoy being degraded sexually. Or used to; maybe that will come back again. I hope so, I think, because it was very exciting and naughty and thrilling (although we never did the pee thing; NOT that there’s anything wrong with that, lol!)
The Christian DD sites scare me because they seem so rigid about it and even misogynistic; maybe it’s because sex is downplayed so much. It’s “God’s WORD” not “Wow this is hot!” Also, it bothers me that some Christian groups appear to have misread the Bible when it comes to who submits to whom and why. But I won’t get into that debate; that’s just a black hole of discussion.
Good post, thanks.
Meow said,
June 16, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Clearly and beautifully stated, Sara & Grant! Lash has always treated me with respect. Part of the reason we started this way of life was because I had a history of disrespectful attitudes, speech and actions towards him. If we hadn’t started out at the point where I could trust him to respect my “hard boundaries”, we couldn’t have done it. I can honestly answer YES to all the questions you put at the end and I hope that Lash could do the same if the gender of the pronouns were reversed (because in our former way of life, I don’t think he could). That’s what this is about for us! It enhances our marriage and enriches BOTH our lives. Meow
Sir J said,
June 16, 2009 at 5:07 pm
I have absolutely nothing but the highest respect for my h and further to that if you do not respect her we are not going to be friends. Everything we do is formed on a basis of respect. As Grant said yes I have made her do things she does like but I have never disrespected her and I would never accept her disrespecting herself or me.
I have had a post along these lines in my “working on it folder” for sometime now and I think I know how to finish it now. Would you mind If I linked this in?
Ally said,
June 16, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Sara,
I am so glad I just read your latest post. I saw the comment before that you were responding to and didn’t really understand it…since your actions were initiated by yourself. Grant didn’t ask you to do anything you didn’t want to do. Shouldn’t any percieved offensive treatment be discussed way in advance – I’ve actually told Brad about something- “I just think that would mess with my head too much”. He wouldn’t do something that would disturb me. I don’t believe that being the dominant partner gives someone the right to treat you however they want. If for some reason my husband asked me to do something I couldn’t accept for valid reasons (not just b/c I didn’t want to do it with out a good reason) I know he wouldn’t force it upon me. Now, since we are new at this, he doesn’t ask a whole lot of me, and we don’t have a lot of experience, but he loves me, and would not treat me disrespectfully on purpose.
The other thing is I am so glad that you talked about the LDD site, I’d read some stuff there and wasn’t so sure about some things. There are multiple things I disagree with. Same with the CDD site, that gets complicated for me. I am a Christian and part of my beliefs are that the Bible does provide a structure for marriage. The husband is the head of the wife, he is subject to Christ, the wife is to respect the husband and the husband is to love the wife… I am sure you are familiar with that. Anyway, like you I don’t believe the Bible says I am any less for that than my husband. We are equals, but there has to be a tie breaker, right? I have struggled with that my entire life like you wouldn’t believe. I have even hated it and resented it and eventually came to a disgruntled acceptance. Until recently…when we started incorperating spanking into our sex life, wait.. I have to backtrack because I missed my point – I don’t believe the Bible encourages domestic discipline, I read all the stuff used to support that it does but I just don’t buy it. I certainly don’t believe God wants anyone to be abused wife or child. Husbands are called to love their wives like their owns bodies and to even die for them. Any dd without consent/clear agreement is spouse abuse in my mind. any dd we chose to incorperate into our lives is our own choice. Oh yeah, another thing you mentioned was the whole thing about humiliation, I am so glad you talked about that, that concept has been troubling me, how exacltly would humiliation foster more love and respect. For me I think it would cause shame and fear. (with the exception of those who decide it’s something they want) you hit the nail on the head, yes, be humbled, totally different. anytime you are corrected for doing something wrong or admitting and apologizing, that is a humbling experience.
Ok, now, when we started incorperating spanking into our sex life, something magical happened, my entire attitude about submission changed. Maybe it became more attractive b/c now it was tied to sex? I think it started that way, and evolved into more. It allowed me to get more comfortable in it. By reading other blogs I was able to see the release in it, the pleasure of just kind of giving up control, the anxiety over it, and the way being dominant made my husband really attractive to me. But it has changed me so much. We were actually talking the other night and he says “I think spanking is my new best friend”. It was a light hearted comment, and he was talking about the way I treat him and my attitude towards him, and what I hope is that underneath all that, we are becoming new best friends. It’s a lovely thing, being so closely connected like that. Ally
ginger said,
June 16, 2009 at 6:30 pm
This was a wonderful post and a headache does not allow me to do it justice with comment. However, what sadly happens is that many naysayers of DD use these outrageous instances like the ones you mentioned (LDD, for example) to claim that DD is truly abusive, blah blah blah. ALL things can be used in unhealthy ways. Hell, one can even take “health” food and get fat on it if they do not use it properly!
I think it’s difficult for people to understand the full scope of DD or D/s when the only exposure they have had to it is through fantasy stories, theory by those who have never lived it or the BS that must be sifted through to get to the real deal. It frustrates me that it can be so misrepresented, but I can also understand it to a degree.
g.
Chloe said,
June 16, 2009 at 6:42 pm
I realized I haven’t been commenting much. At least not out loud, I often comment in my head. But, for some odd reason, no one can read my mind…
Anyway, I just wanted to say I’ve really really LOVED all your Q&A type posts. These question and answer things are… Well, you’re doing an amazing job. (That came out wrong, like I was giving a seal of approval or something, which isn’t quite what I meant… I just meant, well, thank you, you handle these with grace and clarity and great information. I am a lover of discussion, and I don’t ever have to be 100% on board with someone to ADORE what they have to say if they say it really well.) It’s why sometimes I wish people would ask me more questions – I always do my best thinking and explaining in a dialogue.
Granted, my head is a ball of confused fluff at the moment, so I probably couldn’t answer questions very well anyhow, but YOU write with such clarity, and such an even hand, and you have stated convictions without overgeneralizing (as seems to be the problem in the blogs/forums you mentioned) that ONE thing will make everyone happy and SHOULD be done, or that some things SHOULD never be done, etc.
Rock on, Sara. And thank you for your honesty and insight through strong feelings tempered by acceptance and intelligence. You have a truly fabulous voice, blog, and relationship. Thank you, for sharing them with us.
~Chloe
livingdd said,
June 16, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Another great post, Sara. Thanks for writing it. I really think a lot of people will find this very useful. I agree with everything you’ve said.
I feel the same way about K, I know he would never push me past my limits or my boundaries. Respect is a two way street, you can’t respect someone that doesn’t respect you. ~N
Pretty said,
June 17, 2009 at 2:19 am
Awesome response,
Please extend my thanks to G for his time and attention. I think that clearly stated position is what I was trying to draw out. The inconsistencies between CDD, LDD and true committed relationships that are based on care and respect.
So many people misunderstand TTWD — they cannot make all of the pieces fit. They trip up over non-consent, the abuse factor and humiliation; none of which characterize DD Done Right. It is imperative, IMO that the behaviors and attitudes that characterize DD be promoted over and over and over again. The sacrifice of both partners, their commitment to a cause bigger than themselves.
And, as with all statements of truth — we need to be clear that non-consent means no. No one has the right or authority to decide to introduce ‘discipline’ into their relationship without the express consent of their partner. People without training, education or experience in psychology, sociology or theology are loudly promoting CDD as the cure for everything from alcoholism, to jay-walking, to Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. One person goes so far as to promote ‘implied’ consent as Biblical. WTH?!? Another indicates consent is irrevocable. Excuse me? Intransigent, resistant wife? Beat her into submission. We live in America people. You may prevent her from working, take her cell phone and lock her in the house. One day, someone will figure it out and 20/20 will make you famous.
What is the result when women are bound to men who believe ‘because I said so’ is all the reasoning they need before meting out punishment? One man insists his wife submit to multiple quart enemas for punishment — cleaning her inside and out in his view. Another desires his wife no longer wear underwear — ever, but she is required to wear skirts. When she stated her reasons why she did not want to submit to this ‘rule’ — he proudly proclaimed that while he ‘listened’ to her reasons — he did not feel they were as important as his desires. What ‘Christian’ man disregards his wife’s modesty in this manner? Yet another counsels a woman against separating from a spouse who resents her illness and denies her medical care. And the endless, relentless beatings. Ladies, if your bottom never heals ladies, it is too much.
Moreover, it is emotionally abusive to twist a person’s faith in God in a manner that equates their resistance to your kinkiness to sin. The Bible wasn’t written yesterday — why is this unhinged focus on non-consensual adult punishment via CDD coming to light now? The nasty little rascals,,,
Let’s just say Mr LDD is as fascinated with bodily waste as any potty-training two year old.
We cannot allow these to be the only voices in the the DD milieu. We must all continue to delienate and highlight DD Done Right.
P
livingdd said,
June 17, 2009 at 7:25 am
I lost part of my comment, but Grant, I appreciate reading your take on things, thanks for sharing.
~N
Hermione said,
June 17, 2009 at 10:29 am
Sara – a friend of mine passed away recently, and part of the announcement in the paper went like this: “..loved and respected by husband ____”. I’m not saying they had a DD lifestyle, but I thought it was lovely for him to have wanted to say he respected as well as loved her.
Hugs,
Hermione
Grant said,
June 18, 2009 at 10:37 am
Dear All,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I enjoyed reading them all. My apologies for not being here more, but I am just crazy busy all the time these days.
As far as the issue of humiliation and degradation and the odd ways that some men prefer to punish their spouses, I am just not interested in anything that is degrading in any way.
Some of the examples you presented above are offensive, as you stated.
Remember, there is a very big reliance in DD on: COMMON SENSE.
“Common Sense is a material thing and there is only so much to go around.”–private journal
The Best,
Grant
Sara said,
June 20, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Amber, I agree with all of that. The CDDers scare me too! Seriously, why would I offer just any man deference? Because of his anatomical parts? I try to offer every person basic respect, but do not feel any special respect towards men over women.
Meow, you make a very good point about respect going both ways.
Jay, your post was wonderful and I was honored that you linked to this post!
Ally, thank you for sharing all of this. There is so much to wade through for newer DDers, and it can be daunting! I also was very resistant to my husband leading our partnership…50/50…right? It never worked . But graceful submission cannot be forced, and respect will never grow out of humiliation or degradation.
Ginger, yes it is all complicated, but Mr LDD and some CDD sites do all of us a disservice. A few of us offer a real life and sane perspective. Thank you for being one of us!
Thanks ~N~
Pretty, I really appreciate you asking the question, and enlightening me on some of the insanity out there…esp in the CDD world!
Hermione, that was truly touching!
Grant, you are not only an inspiration for me, but for others as well. I am so proud of you!
Cory said,
June 24, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Hi All….
I just came across this site via “A dominant Character”, and I find I will be coming back for more!
Very insightful and intelligent writing!
Thank you for such a great site!
Cory