The Dilemma of Need
This was written this past weekend, before I bickered, we faught, then talked and he spanked…finally! It’s not always easy!
Serenity ( aka Sparkle) wrote an intriguing post on TTWD, about “the problems of taking a fetish and turning it into a working, living relationship.”
I sure do know how this feels. Especially today. Today is not the best of days. I feel needy, neglected even. It’s not his fault. He pays attention, makes time, tries to give me what need. Real life is always pressing, though, jobs, kids, obligations, health, business travel. Grant is also doing a Master’s degree online. It all gets to be quite the juggling act, and sometimes, despite our best intentions, I feel like I go to the back of the line. And sometimes we try and just have a miss. I wonder if it hurts me or him more when there’s a miss. He feels bad so I don’t want to say much. I try to be understanding, but in time I get cranky, misunderstood, begin to feel distant. Then as the need is not met, it grows, and I feel less and less content, more irritable, less wanting to let him see all this upset, and I begin to erect walls. I think it’s an attempt to protect us both? I don’t want to feel so needy. I don’t want to want what he is not giving. I don’t want to be unhappy with him. I want these feelings to just go away. I think I get angry(ish) at him, not for any true failing, but simply because my needs are his alone to meet, and that makes me feel too vulnerable and maybe angry at him for the power he holds.
Sometimes it’s too hard to need anyone the way I need him, and then I just want him to go away. I mean, of course I don’t, but I get scared and it hurts, and so I do. The following is a brand new revelation. He’ll read it here. I’ve noticed one of the results of the progression of our disciplinary relationship is that while he’s gotten better at seeing me, I’ve also gotten better at hiding. I am much more skilled at being what he wants and expects, looking soft and complaint and yielding on the surface. I look fine, balanced, submissive, while inside the downward spiral has begun. Sometimes I think he is missing the truth for my perfected presentation. It’s not that I intend to deceive, but if I can be what he expects, and what I should be, then why would I not? Tell him. Yes, I know, and I do. But I believe I look more together these days than I feel. The irony is that through TTWD, despite all my tremendous effort towards self revelation and honesty, I am wondering if sometimes I have created better smoke and mirrors? I truthfully don’t know.
On the Punishment fetish…Serenity made me realize something. Small infractions do not cut it for us. Not only would Grant not punish for them, but I have been there, being spanked for something I didn’t buy into. I will submit, and yes, it hurts, but as she explained, I don’t really feel sorry. My heart isn’t in it. And big P’s, thank goodness, have been very rare. Hopefully they will stay that way. Smaller punishments are not a huge deal…mostly sending a message and a means of resolution. I can get a really hard spanking by asking for one (well usually…time permitting) But a real punishment is quite different than that. It is the emotional intensity we crave, I think, and how do you create that? Role play is not our thing…and even if it were, it’s not the same as “real”. A hard spanking relieves tension and meets the who’s who burn, but it’s not the same either. Smaller punishments are a bit of both…but not at the same level at all. And NO ONE in their right mind is going to purposefully do something to provoke a serious punishment. So, it has occurred to me, maybe it is like comparing the high of falling in love with the reality of being in love long term? I love my husband and am lucky enough to be in love with him. But the high of “in love”, the intensity, is something that will ebb and flow.
The other issue I have been mulling around is his needs versus mine. I think they are different. In my circumstances, punishment per se does not float his boat. He really appreciates many dimensions and aspect of spanking, but not the punishment experience. That leaves me feeling a bit alone with this recently. It’s such a weird thing…craving what I truly do not want and feeling fulfilled and settled by that which I try hard to avoid. But underneath, I know that the whole of TTWD for us pivots on the fact that he can and will punish me of it is warranted. I don’t know, because I haven’t asked him, but I suspect that the punishment scenario does not fulfill him in that same way. He understands the benefits to me and our marriage. He believes in the domestic discipline lifestyle. He does his duty. I don’t think he feels an internal drive.
Perhaps it’s a real benefit when partners can match their kinks, but truly, does anybody’s match exactly? I doubt it. Serenity’s post made me think about that, because her Chris is clearly “a spanko” and she describes feeling this need in a way that he might not. She needs to be punished. Does he need to punish? Do any of you dominant partners find yourselves really wanting to punish your partner? I’ve felt and read over and over women battling with not bating him into punishing her, knowing this is dishonest and harmful to the relationship. She’s left with the need.
Maybe, just maybe it is because we are women and the dynamic offers us an emotional stability we crave, while our men might not need us in that exact way. They need us, but for other things…emotional connectedness and the softer sides of love…but not to feel solid. Maybe such is the quality of their maleness, that emotional solidness, which is why we more emotional female creatures crave that which we do not have, and they don’t crave that which is already part of them?
One last piece of my ponderings for today: we women don’t want to ask for what we need. It feels like it is not our place to do so. Our men (hopefully) get their needs met by asking and by taking. They are the dominant partners and thus do and create whatever their heart desires. They lead and we follow. They take what they want and we give and we yield with pleasure. Traditionally, we wait… to be seen, felt, our needs to be met. We have secret places that desperately need to be filled…clearly the way we are made.
Yin and Yang. He must seek and find, and empty and yearning, she waits.
Chuck said,
November 3, 2009 at 10:30 am
Sara, another well written piece and you have touched on a several major points.
As you may remember, I have voiced concerns here before about me (the man) being this all powerful creature in the relationship. I don’t believe this is possible for any person. In a relationship, one partner is always stronger in some areas and weaker in others and often these are complementary to our partners. I believe that as part of TTWD, each partners strong areas need to be agreed upon as part of the TTWD agreement. For example, if one is better at dealing with child issues, maybe the roles need to be reversed when dealing with children. In other words in your case, Grant needs to cede control to you without argument in these places. Of course, you will listen to his opinion as intently as he listens to you in the situations where he is in control but the decision is ultimately up to you and he will follow you in this circumstance. There needs to be some kind of balance of control. This does not negate his HoH position at all. It is like a strong boss allowing a trusted and capable employee to take the lead on an issue where the employee has a strength greater than his. However, at the end of the day, he is still boss.
Can a man “really enjoy” punishing his wife? I don’t think so and here is why. Punishment is not enjoyable for ether party. When a man starts to enjoy punishing his wife, it has turned into a kink and is no longer TTWD. I believe that even in a spanko relationship, if it is real punishment for a real transgression, even a spanko would not enjoy the punishment aspect. However, I will like others comment on this subject.
As for the comment about women not wanting to ask for what they want, this is an issue that men have confronted since the beginning of time. As men age, they understand this issue more and more but it can still confuse us at times when we don’t understand the entire need or don’t catch it at all. Without turning into an abuser, there is a fine line that men must never cross. So when your man does not “get what you need”, it is sometimes caution on his part. Grant probably knows you need something but is not sure what or how strong you need whatever it is you need. This need can be anywhere from a kiss and a hug to being thrown down on the bed, spanked, and taken without regard to any resistance you may put up.
Also, you have to remember that in general men are physically bigger and stronger than their partners. We can often take you physically at any time we want and we all know it. In a relationship, this is a great capability but is also a great responsibility . We must use enough strength to take you to some invisible and moving line, without crossing over, and back again. I am a big strong guy and I know I must never use all my strength against a women, even in play, because that would turn me into something nobody wants and possibly injure her in the process. Then we would not be able to play the next day.
I hope all this helps.
Chuck
Ally said,
November 3, 2009 at 11:36 am
Sara, I think that your thoughts on P coincide with your thoughts on needs and how men and women get them differently are related. Women have a bit of control over earning punishment or not. We either earn it or we don’t. Men react with punishment to our action or lack of. My husband wouldn’t punish on a whim. I’m glad that men don’t enjoy punishing, and I don’t enjoy being punished, more so because of the feelings of guilt than the pain. Let me go back for a minute, when I feel neglected, unattended, there is usually a good reason, life is busy. I feel selfish asking for what I need sometimes. I hate asking. However, I think that a P is the only kind of spanking that we can “earn” without “asking” and it demands the attention of our partner. Perhaps this is why we crave that scenario – the attention, the emotional aspect, the reconnection, all there without us asking for it. Just a thought…
Serenity Everton said,
November 3, 2009 at 11:48 am
Have to think before I give a complete response but, fyi, you were correct about Chris. He does not care to punish me, he does it because I need him to – because it absolves guilt, clears the air, allows us to resume emotional intimacy…
Now, spanking me for little things, or for D/s infractions … he’s all over that and usually with a grin on his face. It’s hard to feel guilty about those when he’s looking forward to the aftermath so much. lol.
s
Marie said,
November 3, 2009 at 11:55 am
Sara, this is such a dilemna…as you have said. I can really relate to the intensity of the need to feel completely overpowered and truly punished. And like you, I think it would be dishonest and ultimately unfulfilling to pick a fight or artificially set myself up for being punished.
However, it’s also a form of dishonesty to put on an air of calm and contentment, or submissiveness when underneath you are wroiling with anger and need. Practiced perfection isn’t an honest reaction to feeling neglected and unseen. Putting up walls and hiding, while often being more polite, doesn’t have any place in the type of marriage that you and Grant are striving for.
For instance, if Grant were to ask you this evening if you’d exercised today, the polite response might be “Yes, dear.” But the honest response, based on your inner-turmoil and angry(ish)-ness might be “Bite me, Grant!” I’m not saying that the first thing that jumps to mind is necessarily the thing that must be said, but this studied air of calm complaisance and submission seems to be a sort of cop out when it comes to engaging in a real relationship with your partner. There are plenty of times when calm and contentment ARE the real feelings, but when they aren’t, don’t pretend.
And for Grant, his polite reaction to your anger might be “I can see that you’re tired and out-of-sorts tonight, Sara. I forgive you.” But the honest reaction would most likely be to march you into the bedroom and lay into you with a paddle.
Women are emotional, irrational, high-strung and passionate. If you need Grant to unleash his male-ness on you, it would be fair to say that you need to be more honest in sharing your less studied and practiced female responses with him.
Please forgive me Grant. I am not trying to “start” something. I am just saying that for Sara to put up walls and hide her true feelings is destructive to the relationship in it’s own way. It’s good to be polite. It’s important to share our best selves with our spouse. But when our honest reaction is to yell and pout because we are feeling insecure, unstable or misunderstood, then so be it.
Please tell me if I am wrong. I am completely willing to be wrong, but I think that studying less and feeling more might be okay now and then.
BabyMan said,
November 3, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Sara, thanks for the post.
“Small infractions do not cut it for us. Not only would Grant not punish for them, but I have been there, being spanked for something I didn’t buy into.”
I’m pretty certain – even in our infancy with “ttwd” – that I could never bring a real punishment upon SugarAnne for a “small infraction”. Punishments for small infractions are, for her, a cleansing; for me, a way to vent my accumulated frustration and for both of us a way to enjoy reconnection, intimacy and ultimately tender and passionate lovemaking. A real punishment, I suppose, is too heavy for lightweight stuff. In the same way you look forward to it – and not. That’s the same way I look forward to it – and not. I wonder if I’ll be able to when it is indisputably necessary (and desired).
“Does he need to punish? Do any of you dominant partners find yourselves really wanting to punish your partner?”
I think I “need” to punish in order to move our “ttwd” relationship forward. But it is not an aching personal need. I did however notice that earlier in the week my “A game” was beginning to slip and I felt the bona fide need to spank SugarAnne in order to reboot it. I was concerned that I would be lifting myself up by putting her over my knee. There was no small infraction upon which to punish so the need led to an erotic spanking and passionate love. We both enjoyed that.
The day that a need for punishment rears its (ugly? pretty?) head is the day BabyMan finds out what he’s made of. My “need” is: I want to be able to punish when necessary.
Mick said,
November 3, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Sara, I believe it is a sign of maturity to act in the way you think is good, even if you don’t feel like it inside.
On the other hand, it is also good to acknowledge your inner feelings, and I’m sure Grant wants to hear about those, even if you’re busy and have to schedule it in.
I wasn’t sure exactly you were talking about when you said you didn’t like saying what you need. But you also know that one of the things that frustrated men who love their women is that they can’t know without being told. And sometimes even when words are used, sometimes we still don’t get it. I’m considered perceptive, but I often don’t get it either. I really appreciate it if my wife will verbalize what’s going on (you gals are supposed to be good at that, I’m told).
Finally, could you help me with some clarification? You mention a need to a Punishment spanking even if there is no action on your part to warrant it. An intense spanking without the punishment aspect is not always adequate. If the physical act is the same, what makes the difference? Is there some generalized guilt that needs to be assuaged? Do you need the husband to scold even if there is no reason to?
As always, you write thought provoking posts and I always look forward to them.
Florida Dom said,
November 3, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Sara: As usual, another good post. And I think your comment was right on that so many women don’t want to say what they need. But from a clueless guys standpoint, sometimes we just misread the signals and don’t realize what they want.
I often wonder if women could write a note and put it on their man’s pillow if they have needs that aren’t being met.
Just a thought. But the last two words of your blog “she waits” seemed to indicate she’s finding for him to figure things out. Sometimes we men could use a little help.
And instead of hiding what you really feel and putting up a front, can you just say I’m having a tough day today and let him take it from there. Aren’t relationships between men and women oh so complicated regardless of the lifestyle?
FD
s said,
November 3, 2009 at 8:55 pm
I am in this exact spot with R, and could have written this post myself.
Thanks for writing it. I could not, I don’t think.
R does not like to punish me, which is why I think at times he “seems” to be looking the other way when he really should put me in my place, so to speak. I am pushy and assertive (altho I try not to be in certain areas), and the more he ignores it the more out of control, uncontained, and needy i feel. Then, like you, I start erecting walls, so as to not expect what I need in order to not be disappointed when it doesn’t get fulfilled. Then I, like you, get angry. At myself for needing what I need, and he being the one who provides it. And angry at him for not getting it sometimes. Like you, I don’t like the way I feel when I feel like this…..so I push it down. Do the “right thing”. iron the shirts, cook the meals, yet….at a distance……
Sometimes I wonder…..do we really need our heads?? I mean, honestly……
s.
Vanessa said,
November 4, 2009 at 11:02 am
A poignant post, Sara. No easy answers, but your ponderings reflect my reality as well. Thanks for sharing; it’s nice to know I’m not alone!
Vanessa
Chuck said,
November 4, 2009 at 11:26 am
Since it is mostly women responding here and not giving clear answers to how men are supposed to interpret a woman’s needs, please give us men some help here.
As I said in my original response, your need may be anywhere from a kiss and a hug to something much more … severe. I have been married and know that sometimes the women does not know herself what she really needs exactly.
Assuming that the man would know the women very well, he would have some idea of the general needs of his partner at any particular time. Therefore he would know a general target to shoot for but what about stepping over the line by punishing too severely. Does this automatically negate any good that he was trying to do by attempting to satisfy her needs?
Also, since an exact hit of the “right” amount of punishment would not always happen, are we better to overshoot or undershoot the severity of the punishment?
After all, in the end, this is all that everyone wants to do: satisfy our partners needs to the best of our ability.
Chuck
Lisa said,
November 5, 2009 at 2:35 am
Then we wait! I have been spanked for every reason, fun,deserved it, if your going to act like a child..I will treat you like one, also for P. I remeber 1 clearly. I lied to M, it was small but that is not tolerated at all. What I remeber most about it was yes the spanking was hard and long, but at one point M changed the impliment. He then said I am finding no pleasure out of finishing this but you lied & I have to. I swear M could have spanked me for days and it never would have hit me like those word’s. I instantly broke to tears, weeping. I have to say he looked confused for a moment & asked why are you crying so hard? My answer came out because you are punishing me. I knew I did something wrong, I knew he did’nt want to have to go there, M has told me he does’nt want to have to punish, he loves me and that is hard. That particular P was about a yr ago. I don’t now remeber the pain, the nervousness, but I have never forgot that feeling of how I felt when he said that. As you might remeber M & I had to put a hold on our relationship, we are working very hard to get everything back to us. This hold was because of me, waiting, not speaking with him of my need’s, I put my wall’s up, I got angry, I was upset and I hated waiting so needless to say when I did speak it was pure frustartion. That caused nothing but saddness for both. I have always found it hard to ask for spanking’s or what I really wanted. It’s awkward! Why can’t he just know? Because he is really not a mind reader. Shocker to me! But true. We went to dinner last night, after I said I am so glad we went there instead of the other place, thats where I really wanted to go. He said well you know you have a voice to say what you want to, I said I know, then laughed and said no I don’t know lol. I shared more of myself here tonight then I ever did on your blog, maybe because I know the feeling’s to well, maybe i do want the p’s, maybe just for myself knowing if I don’t ask it is my wall and not his, blocking him from hearing me, & having me sit on the other side of that wall waiting. I’m taking the wall’s down. I want him to be able to here me and me him. I don’t think any of our men want stepford wives, maybe close lol. But more so they do want to hear us, just in a calm and healthy way. Sorry it was so long. Just breath & tell him…
A. Lurker said,
November 5, 2009 at 3:20 am
Hi Sara,
Hope you are feeling more settled by the time you read this. As you know, I consider you and your blog very sane and thought provoking. I respect what you and Grant do to create a close relationship. As I read your profound post it provoked some thoughts of my own. They are just points I am pondering and hopefully they come across respectfully as I would never want to offend you. So here goes!
Concerning the “punishment fetish”, that “high” feeling of infatuation with dd vs the ebbs and flows of the long term dd relationship makes a lot of sense, however I wonder if there is more to it than that. Obviously I don’t know you personally but I know many of us woman suffer from that on-and-off feeling of guilt. Could I be a better wife? Could I be a better mom? Is the house tidy enough? That kind of stuff. By the tone of your post it seems like there is angst over feeling needy, a bit of guilt over the fact that you are becoming better at hiding, knowing he is not a mind reader yet wanting him to figure it out. Could there be an inner feeling that if you got that “P” that guilt makes you think you deserve it would wipe the slate clean?
You also talk about waiting because he is dominate and takes what he needs when he decides. This is curious to me because the tone of your blog whenever you talk about your relationship is about two strong, intelligent adults making sure there is communication and being able to respectfully discuss their points of view. Then if there is no consensus he decides and you accept. It always seemed to me that he welcomed your input. You always say you submit to Grant but you are not a submissive so do you really need to wait passively for him to figure it out?
You also seem to come down hard on yourself for being so needy of him and that triggers all sorts of reactions in you. Yet it is also that need that binds you together as a couple so is it really as bad as it seems? I mean, from what you write, you don’t seem to go through other aspects of your life with other people feeling that way. It is something only for you and Grant and I have a feeling, in his own way he is just as needy of you. From the outside looking in it seems like something to aspire to and something that can be very fulfilling. Am I making any sense?
Anyway, thank you for this profound post as I love reading things that make me really stop and think. Again, I hope I didn’t offend as I respect and admire what you do and the courage you have in talking about it. Hope things are on the upswing now.
R.
L. said,
November 5, 2009 at 2:55 pm
” I’ve noticed one of the results of the progression of our disciplinary relationship is that while he’s gotten better at seeing me, I’ve also gotten better at hiding.”
This comment has been percolating in my brain since I read it. I have been thinking about authenticity, about showing my true self to my husband.
There is a place for private thoughts. There is a place for overlooking faults in the man we love. But if we are hiding resentment, frustration, or hurt feelings, then it’s better to clear the air, even if there must be a lively discussion or frank argument. Not all conflict is to be avoided –if it leads to greater marital understanding and satisfaction, it is healthful for the relationship.
Some years ago my husband told me, on several occasions, that he didn’t want to hear what I was upset about. It apparently threatened him too much and he was afraid to hear it. I asked him if he would rather have to hear it for the first time in front of a counselor, as that would be where we would end up if we couldn’t resolve it ourselves. He reluctantly agreed that it was better to hear it from me now.
Evidently he came to see that my direct confrontation of problems was a good thing because in the years since, he has been very open to anything I needed to tell him– and has become quicker to voice his own complaints when he needed me to hear them! It has led to quicker resolution of problems and growth in our marriage.
And it has helped us to maintain our romantic attraction to each other, because nothing dampens attraction so much as unresolved anger. (I saw that in my parents’ marriage and want no part of it in mine.)
KayLynn said,
November 6, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Sara,
So many thoughts. First of all I do not believe that we are the type of women who are so submissive that we would’ve felt comfortable seeking out someone who was a sadist (& I don’t mean that in a bad way – which is kind of funny don’t ya think?!). Ahem … I think that we chose men who were described in the times as Type A’s. We wanted a strong protector that we knew would match us intellectually. I have personally come to believe that on some levels I have recreated some intangeable need to be loved by someone who is an overacheiver – who – logistically speaking -often has me on the back burner. I know that it is not the case emotionally. Therein lies the difference (the improvement if you will, from one generation to the next). I know his heart is attached to mine. But it is more known than shown. I do believe that he doesn’t want it to be that way – but he is doing what he learned with many improvements. So all that said, we still sit and wait for the chances to be together. And when we have that chance, it needs to be monumental. It needs to be something that will carry us into the next time which we know won’t necessarily be the next day. And they chose us because of our strength and independence.
Second I think that it is very exciting to have that anticipatory loss of control. Everything I’ve ever written is all about those phenomenal moments of fear in a controlled setting. As an aside, Lurvspanking (LS) had a wonderful post about the differences between P and D spankings (as well as maintainence and erotic). The D one is likened to someone conditioning themselves in a sport. He did such a better job – check it out. I finally got the nerve to ask Greg to take me to the edge. – LS was great about pushing me to do just that –
The next thing I am going to ask for is Greg telling me that we are going to have an edge night so that I can feel those butterflys and look at him with a bit of trepidation. I flourish under those Dom types of actions.
elle (theoccasionalmuse.wordpress.com) is very wise and has talked me down off of the building more than once over this exact issue. The concept was that part of being submisive is to do so when we don’t feel like it. Whenever I’ve described this to Greg, it is usually when I’m well passed the retrieval point. And Greg finds this to be a critisism of sorts. It’s as if I’ve said, “You’ve let me down!” He’ll usually respond with a ‘get over yourself’ or ‘control yourself’ ’sounds’ like something you need to workout on your own’. If I tell him before I get crazy I have found much better results. And when nothing works out, I’ll read stories and get my “fix” *sighs*
There’s great beauty and pain involved in being in touch with your feelings!
Hugs, KayLynn
Sara said,
November 6, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Awesome comments! Thanks to all of you! I am answering my the next post.