I’ve had two questions recently, and so I am going to talk a bit about Dd Boot Camp. The idea behind boot camp is to train and expose and instill discipline into a new recruit.
- is essential for the esprit de corps and cohesion for battlefield conditions
- gets the recruits used to instinctive obedience and following the orders
- enables large units to be marched and moved in an orderly manner
- creates the basis for action in the battlefield.
Aspects of basic training are psychological. The reasoning is that if a recruit cannot be relied upon to obey orders and follow instructions in routine matters it is unlikely that he or she will be reliable in a combat situation where there may be a strong urge to disobey orders or flee.
The military knows that an officer is not made in a weekend, a week, or even a year, and to make a good soldier…well the basic training part of boot camp for new recruits is 10 weeks, fulltime, 7 days a week for just part one.
In Dd, when someone talks about boot camp they are usually talking about a weekend, a week, maybe a month, but then that would be when they are together, and when real life permits….working around jobs and kids, which leaves a few hours a day at most. Boot camp in the Dd world usually involves numerous spankings a day, with varied intensity from light to harsh and “just because”. There are rigorous punishments for a whole host of stepped up infractions…not the ones a couple will or could live with long-term. The supposed aim is to learn to give and take discipline…most often spankings, and to actually become more submissive and dominant. So…is the true goal of using Dd in your marriage to use discipline ‘just because’? Which wife wants to take a spanking when she knows she and he agree she has not earned it? Which husband wants to harshly spank his wife when she has not earned it? That would be only be a husband and wife who are dipping into sadomasochistic play.
How about looking at some other typical rules and activities:
1. On Sunday when the kids are gone you will be naked and address me as “Sir”.
2. You will be spanked multiple times each day, and will submit immediately.
3. After each spanking you will kneel in the corner on a ridged mat (or dry rice) for 10 minutes.
4. You will ask permission if you want to use the bathroom. I may say yes or no.
5. You will not touch yourself without permission.
6. You will not orgasm without permission.
These are just examples, things I have seen women write about on forums and in blogs. Here’s what people on Dd blogs and forums rarely will admit…What this really is, is BDSM:
BDSM is an erotic preference and a form of sexual expression involving the consensual use of restraint, intense sensory stimulation, and fantasy power role play. The compound initialism BDSM is derived from the terms bondage and discipline (B&D or B/D), dominance and submission (D&S or D/s), and sadism and masochism (S&M or S/M). BDSM includes a wide spectrum of activities, forms of interpersonal relationships, and distinct subcultures.
I am not going to delve into the age-old argument of whether Dd is really a subculture of BDSM. It doesn’t matter to me for us, nor for the point I am making here. But I have no doubt that the games that couples play when they do a Dd Boot Camp are games, and that it is indeed a “fantasy role play experience”. Dd Boot Camp is a form of play, play that is grounded in BDSM.
Now don’t get me wrong, there is not one thing wrong with a couple playing sexual games, playing with pain, or playing with their power exchange. Absolutely nothing! Adult married couples need to and should play with whatever they can have fun with, whatever turns them on. But can we be honest and say it is sexual play? Can we not pretend it is something done with the intent of re-organizing a marriage? Can we not pretend it will result in helping to develop a long-term improved relationship dynamic? It just won’t.
What we have found in the field of psychology, after many years of research, is that intense immersion in short-term behavioral programs does not offer long-term gain. With a one or two week or even a 30 day behavioral program, there is an immediate gain seen, and then over a week or two or four, the benefits slowly diminish and the participant regresses back to where they started. The only exception to that is where the participant is supported by regular and ongoing behavioral intervention and treatment. As soon as THAT stops, the behaviors most often return. Why? Because the behaviors are approached from the outside in, rather than the inside out, and no significant internal changes took place. If you are looking for significant and long-term improvements in the quality of your marriage and your life, then you need to look inwards. Changing a behavior in a non-sustainable environment will not be sustainable. Changing a behavior from the outside will not automatically trigger internal changes.
I understand that way back some person within the world of Dd, one who was not extremely advanced in their understanding of the complexity of the mind, the needs of the heart, and I would guess not long-term successfully married either…thought boot camp might be a neat idea: “Let’s immerse a woman in the rigors of training to follow orders, to accept discipline and kick-start Dd! Let’s immerse a man in the aspects of his role, so he feels at home giving orders, setting rules, and administering discipline!” I have always cautioned my readers to look carefully at who they take advice from. Who are these people behind the screen? How long have they been married? How long have they practiced Dd? How old are they? What does their real life marriage look like? Do you want what they have? If you don’t know, aren’t sure, think for yourself! If the answers to how long someone has been married are in single digits, and how long they have practiced Dd is under 5 years, they would not be anyone I would think to take advice from. I have high standards for myself and thus have high standards for my advisors. My first Dd mentor was a woman who had been married for over 20 years and practicing Dd for near 5 years at that time. I knew she had enough wisdom and experience to counsel me. My marriage is just too precious to allow myself to be guided by people who have more ideas than experience. And even then, I’d hear what she said, and then we’d make sure it was a good fit for us. Anyone who tells you “This is how to do Dd!” is not someone you should be listening to. Dd is a broad concept that involves incorporating a power-exchange into a marriage for the purpose of enhancing a relationship. Exactly what that will mean for you in your marriage must be determined by you.
Way back, somewhere in year one of Dd I brought the idea of boot camp to Grant. Some of the Dd gals were doing it. I had read about it and wanted to give us every advantage we could get. Kick starting, or fast forwarding Dd sounded good! He threw back his head and laughed at me!
“First”, he said, “If I were going to spank you for every single tiny thing you did, I would have to spend my entire day spanking you and you’d never be able to sit down!”
Frankly, I was a bit insulted. “I’m, not that bad!”
“No, you are not bad at all. But you’re feisty and sassy and don’t much like to be told what to do.”
“Ok, I guess that’s mostly true. But I am really trying!”
“Yes, you’re trying and you’re growing, as am I. Here’s the thing, I don’t want Dd to be about changing who you are, and I don’t want to become mostly a disciplinarian in our marriage either. I want us to grow together, to change from the inside out. That’s going to take some time and some patience. Really, I don’t want your obedience as much as your co-operation. I don’t want you to do or not do things just because of spankings, and frankly, I don’t want to have to punish you all the time to keep you in line. I want Dd in our marriage to be something that we mutually grow, together, that’s real in our lives. That boot camp thing is a game…a fantasy.”
Grant had never read about Dd Boot Camp, but instinctively he knew it was not where he wanted to direct our marriage to go. It was his call, of course, so I let it go, with some small secret disappointment. Now, 6 years later, I understand what he meant, and I realize how right he was, too.
That began a discussion about incorporating submission exercises into our marriage and we did and still do that. I know I have had many questions on that topic and I will post about that tomorrow.
We don’t do ‘boot camp’, never have, never will. That’s because we don’t believe boot camp has much to do with Domestic discipline nor will it bring us closer to the goals we have for our marriage. My husband is not much interested in having a wife who jumps when he says jump, nor does he wish to assert authority for it’s own sake. He also did not want punishment to be a big part of our dynamic. Grant was not “a spanko”. He wanted the need for punishment to diminish. He must have gotten that part right, because now, 6 and a half years into Dd, punishments are few and far between. He wanted a peaceful and harmonious marriage, and so everything he did was well thought out to aim us towards that goal. That’s an individual decision each couple has to make. What do you want your marriage to look like 5 years down the road? What will your Dd look like? That’s your choice. Do we play in our bedroom? We do. But that’s private, and not part of Domestic discipline and not what I talk about on this blog.
Thanks for this insight, Sara; I had seen DD bootcamp mentioned on IslaWinters blog (Living in DD) and asked her several times what it was about, but she never responded. I had never before heard of boot camp (other than a tv programme for out of control kids) and was curious as to whether this would be a fun game for Davey and me. After reading your article, I realise this would not be right for us, Davey only seeks my co-operation and mutual respect; he would never seek to stop me having and voicing my opinion and beliefs….nor would he punish me or give me dumb orders just to test my blind obedience.
Brilliant article, thanks xxxxxxxxx
Thank you for your willingness to tell it like it is! I have read several blog posts concerning Dd boot camp, and I was seriously thinking about bringing it up to M. However, M and Grant seem to share the philosophy that they don’t want Stepford Wives, that sassiness is part of our personalities, and they don’t want to change who we are. I absolutely agree that 2-3 days, even working on real issues, is not enough time to affect a true change of heart. That kind of change takes months of serious personal work, and it can’t come from anyone but ourselves. I also appreciate the yardstick with which you measure your mentors. I wouldn’t take parenting advice from a 20 year old, and I don’t take marriage advice from anyone who hasn’t been married as long as I have. The best advice comes from the voice of experience. Thank you for being that voice!
D.
Daisy, it might indeed be a “fun game” but it is not going to make a big difference in how successful you are in r/l Dd.
D, I am known for telling it like it is, whether or not it’s a popular opinion. I think when people begin Dd they are so very anxious for help that they sometimes allow themselves to be lured into following ideas that they might not otherwise consider. They are vulnerable. Your rule of thumb about not taking advice from people unless they have been married at least as long as you sounds pretty sensible.
Vanessa, I am sure I will take some flak. The CDD-ers like to claim their interest in spanking is pure…always non-sexual, and “boot camp” is right next to bible study. I bed to differ.
And there’s nothing wrong with fun weekend activities, are their Abby!
But no, that is not “good training for real life”.
Mick, I have seen on your blog the evidence of huge growth, as you have seen on mine. I guess the proof is in the pudding?
You may take some flak for this one, Sara, but I agree with you. This is something my husband and I have played with a very little, but I agree with you, it is PLAY – not something effecting a true change in the relationship and very little to do with his real, day-to-day leadership.
Glad to see you offering a needed perspective on this subject.
A well written thoughtful entry. I was not all that familar with DD boot camps, but they seemed to not be good training for real life. You have convinced me. DD or subnmission, they are journeys that change along the way, I think that the boot camp concept is tempting to those starting out…they are looking for direction and it looks like a good jumping off spot. To me it sounds like a fun weekend activity! abby
Sara, we started deliberately and carefully, and we still proceed that way. Like you mentioned, in the beginning, there were quite a few punishment spankings, but now now so much because we’re growing.
Thanks for spelling it out.
Hi Sara,
Normally I agree with you on most stuff, but on this one I have to disagree. First let me preface this by saying I would NEVER go through Boot Camp, because frankly it’s just not for me. Sounds like it’s not for you either, LOL!
However, I don’t think that, just because it’s not right for you or me, doesn’t mean it can’t be right for other people, without being a fantasy type/BDSM/role play thing. I know several people that it actually HAS helped immensely. I don’t understand some of the common rules you stated, because I’ve never seen most of those. But I do think it depends on intent, and how the boot camp is conducted. If it’s done in the way you described above, like to humiliate and teach blind obedience, or something, then yeah, I can’t see how it would work all that well, at least for anyone I know, LOL. But if it has a Dd focus, and everything is done within that context, and all the basic rules of mutual respect still apply; that this is about growing as a couple more than to humble the girl, I absolutely agree with it, for those couples who will benefit from it. I think that, as you say, there’s no one way to do Dd. Everything has to find the way that works for them.
Wow. Thats funny. While I have seen these types of boot camps outlined on blogs in the past, and i felt the same way, Many of my DD friends in blog land And in real life have been following a different formula. They only thing it has in common with your outline is of course # 2, and even those spankings have “lessons” incorporated into them. It is the best outline i have seen, It is very fair, has NOTHING the least bit sexual involved and many of my friends have had much success with it. I suspect you will be hearing from them shortly.
Kay, I am not sure that we can agree or disagree, because you’ve not laid out what you’re referring to. The term “boot camp” has been used for years to describe variations of what I laid out. It’s really about instantaneous obedience and swift discipline, the focus is definitely on punishment. That’s not what most Dd couples want or can make work long term. It’s interesting that you defend it, but think it’s not for you. Can you share why it’s not for you?
His First Mate…I’ll ask you the same question. Your “friends” do something wonderful, but you have not tried it yourself? Why not, if it is so successful and beneficial?
You just can’t have a short term ‘fix’ and the temptation is to be in a terrible rush at the outset when everything takes time to evolve, nurture and process.You can also compare yourself unfavourably to other couples , be convinced that a particular style is ‘the one’, be swayed by a more assertive outlook , get terribly confused or find that the discipline has become indiscriminate.Besides,honestly,what’s the hurry ?…you have got the rest of your lives to get it right and keep the relationship fresh.Now that’s surely worth the wait and time investment.And you get to keep your personality intact !Sarah,LD,UK
I’ve never heard of the DD boot camp thing before. That’s interesting. Doesn’t sound like something I would want to do, personally. Good for you and Grant for doing what you both know is best for your own marriage. To each their own.
Thank you for having the courage to post your heart felt thoughts on this topic. I agree with you 100% and am thankful for the wisdom you offer to the ones of us that are new to DD. In fact, to be honest with you, when I have read blogs that have talked about “boot camp” I began to second guess if this is really the right lifestyle for us. Sometimes when reading different blogs I get scared thinking, my goodness, I really don’t want to live the way some have portrayed the lifestyle. Thanks for your input. It’s good to read about something other than the details of spanking, spanking and more spankings!
Very very interesting post Sara
I’ve read a little from other blogs about boot camp and while it appears to suit ‘some’? It is certainly not for ‘all’ but I do agree (in my humble opinion) that it is not all entirely relevant in regards to ttwd. Not for me anyhow. I have no wish to be micro managed and I don’t think I could be so blindly obedient lol even if only for a couple of days and I know Mitch would be very uncomfortable with this. We may have our bumps in the road but I’m quite happy with the pace and level we have managed to stumble into ourselves without resorting to what I perceive as rather extreme measures. But like everything else in life, each to their own.
Ps: I like that you are not afraid to voice your opinion on things. It is, after all, what blogging is all about and I like to read everybodys viewpoints because they can differ so much and each person can read something and think about it totally differently to the next person. It’s very interesting to watch it all unfold
Dee x
Sara,
When I first heard about dd, I was intrigued, researched it and finally went to my husband with it. When I first heard about boot camp, I was NOT intrigued. It sounded too scary and painful.
But then I talked to couples that had been through boot camp and they all had one thing in common….these couples connected on a deep EMOTIONAL level that stayed with them. Now I was intrigued and did more research.
The ultimate goal of boot camp is to assist the husband in becoming consistent (inconsistency, anyone?) and help the wife learn to be submissive. The assignments they do, along with the spankings, opened their hearts and minds to each other. Not one couple said ‘it was a nightmare, don’t do it’. Quite the opposite, they all gave glowing reports on what boot camp had done for them as a couple, how they had learned an appreciation for each other’s roles and how GLAD they were to have done it.
It saddens me to see such a strongly worded opinion from you on this topic when you haven’t even tried it. How many people label us practicing DD…and they haven’t even tried it? Just as DD isn’t for every couple, boot camp isn’t also.
Your insight and experience have been very helpful to many of us, and while Jared and I have discussed taking a weekend and giving boot camp a shot, I can’t get your label out of my head…we’re sadomasochists. I thought we were a couple just trying to be the best we could be together.
Maybe, in all fairness, since we haven’t given the boot camp a try, I shouldn’t be defending it. But we are considering it (if we can EVER get that weekend alone).
Sarah, I think you and I both come from a more mature perspective (we’re getting old?) which means we see the benefits of taking things a bit slower.
To each their own is a great motto Lea!
Jenn, when you begin to read about Dd you find so many varied lifesyles and ways of doing things described….and so many call themselves Dd. You have to take your time and carefully pick and choose what suits you, find your place.
Dee, I do get to say what I think here, because after all, it is MY blog!
Rogue, neither you nor I have tried boot camp, yet we both have pretty strong opinions on what we have seen and read don’t we? I think it should be ok to say them. Please go back and read carefully what I wrote, because I never said that all people who try boot camp are sadomasochists.
Sure, Sara, I’d be happy to!
I’ve read about many boot camps, that have different rules and focuses. I don’t understand the ones focused on humiliation or even humbling. And I agree with you that change has to come from within. And yes, I can see how one of those might easily become like a game!
But not all are like that. I’m sure by now you’ve heard of Clint’s guideline for a type of boot camp (which I should point out is not Clint’s per se, but what’s practiced by many in a city where DD is a way of life and openly practiced). It’s one that’s done only for very specific situations, not just by anybody, to address those certain issues. Don’t get me wrong, I do still shudder at the idea of boot camp! BUT objectively, the idea of an intense weekend focused on just each other and your relationship and and how to improve it, to me, has merit (especially if it’s followed by a vacation, or something really cool!). And the idea of doing essays that strengthen the marriage all weekend (some couples both do it, then they discuss it), I think can be really beneficial. As for the four spankings of various degrees that are suggested, I understand the logic of the lessons behind it, but I just couldn’t go through it. For me, some of it’s about issues from childhood, and some of it’s that I hate the idea of going through pain I don’t have to, lol! And I don’t care what kind of purpose it serves! But most of all, it just isn’t a good fit for us and our needs, as a couple. Every couple is unique,and therefore, what works for each couple must also be unique and tailored to fit their needs, yes?
That being said, however, I know several people, by name, that HAVE benefited from it, on a long-term basis. It’s brought couples closer together. It’s allowed HOH’s to learn to become more consistent on a long-term basis. It’s allowed those couples to discuss issues that needed to be discussed, and made staying out of trouble easier, not just because of the possibility of punishment, but because there’s an intense connection that’s supposed to happen that weekend, if it’s done right. I’ve seen the results, and I can’t argue with it. So if it works, I have to say more power to them, right? Anyway, that’s my take on it!
Kay, I know vaguely of Clint’s blog, but no, I am not familiar with his version of boot camp. Frankly, I simply stay away from sites that charge. I cannot possibly know of every version of what is commonly called ‘Dd Boot Camp’. This post was not about Clint, his version of Boot Camp, or anyone in particular. I am not in any way putting Clint or his advice down, because I am unfamiliar with it. I do know that Clint has just recently had his two year wedding anniversary (I stumbled on his wife’s blog and read her anniversary post). I was so suprised to learn that someone so new to marriage and TTWD is selling advice! Following someone’s advice on anything about marriage let alone Dd who has such limited experience would not be something I personally would consider doing. I want to learn from people who come from a position of personal experience and maturity. Anyone who has been married and practicing Dd for only a few years, regardless of their smarts and great ideas, would not be my idea of an appropriate mentor. I know when I was newly marriaed and when I was newer at Dd I just did not know what I did not know. I guess I still don’t! I have been emailed Dd questions for years, but did not give advice, and did not open my own “Ask Sara and Grant” page until we hit our 5th anniversary in Dd. I still keep to general concepts rather than detailed “how-to” advice. I just thought it would be wrong to offer advice before I had subtance…real experience to draw upon. I stil think it’s wrong to give people a formula for Dd. I share what has worked for us, in general terms and urge people to think for themselves and apply what they like in their own way. This is simply my own perspective, a matter of my own conscience and sense of integrity. And…I don’t even charge. You get to read here…or not…for free.
What I do know a great deal about, personally, is psychology. I have been studying and working in various aspects of the field for 32 years. I know about short term behavioral programs, and the consistent lack of long term results. “We feel so close” is just not a true measure, and certainly not of a long term gain. Results would need to be measured over time for me to be convinced that they are worthwhile. How many people do you know, or read about who are all gung-ho with Dd and then a year later they have quit? Some you know now will be gone, some may even divorce. All those blogs that go away…they did not just ride off into the sunset, happily ever after. Time will tell in terms of the effectiveness of what “your friends” have tried, and I sure do hope you are right, that they will do well with their marriages. My experience, has taught me that many more people play at Dd then stick it out and make long term changes in their lives and their marriages.
To go back to what you started with: “I’ve read about many boot camps, that have different rules and focuses. I don’t understand the ones focused on humiliation or even humbling. And I agree with you that change has to come from within. And yes, I can see how one of those might easily become like a game!” I’d say we agree!
And Kay, one more thing…there is “a city where DD is a way of life and openly practiced”? Are you telling me there is a city in the USA that condones domestic violence? Openly practiced Dd sounds pretty scary to me. I am obviously a believer in Dd, but I also know our laws are in place for such good and important reasons.
Rogue, I’m not sure why her having an opinion would make you sad. We’re all free to agree or disagree.
The term “sadomasochism” is a clinical term, not a judgmental one. It’s merely a means to label a behavior more accurately.
Sara,
I’m going to forward this post to Laurie, she will love it. I think she will have some opinions here.
Rob
Thanks for your words on this Sara. You know that I was awfully befuddled over it. We just want to find our way in this in the healthiest way possible…lol…which my husband has just announced to be Sunday evening reconnection. Off to my doom!
Sometimes I think what I’ve been doing as DD casual, because my husband doesn’t want to boss me or micro manage, but rather my cooperation in most things. He would never do a serious boot camp like what I’ve read about, not the the weird kind that’s all about his needs (she sleeps with no panties and gives me **** every morning) or the interpersonal kind with bonding “homework.” I’m excited about your post tomorrow, because I’ve always wondered about acts of submission and just what those are like.
Anyways, (just deleted a long, twisty half-rant) I’M SO GLAD I’M NOT ALONE. Not that you are casual, but that my husband and I don’t have to be so serious all the time to be “real.”
I will preface by admitting that I have not ever participated in a DD boot camp, and find it somewhat interesting that none of the other commenters (so far) have either.
Sara: You mention (if I’m not reading this wrong) that you and Grant never did a boot camp but have incorporated “submission exercises” into your relationship. Can you explain what you think the difference is? From what I’ve read it seems like they are pretty similar though boot camp would last longer – the basic idea is adding in rules and punishments that couldn’t be easily enforced long-term, but serve a short-term purpose.
Mick: Both sadism and masochism are still considered psychological illnesses (although they are only diagnosed when they cause distress or impairment in life) under the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I think it’s quite natural for them to carry negative connotations.
Personally, I think I would be interested in a boot camp someday, mostly for fun. I don’t agree with the humiliation tactics, because I know that for me I would have a very hard time feeling loved if I were being treated badly. However, I think ultra-consistency could be helpful in learning to trust in N’s leadership and ability to follow through; it would be a great change from current circumstances where he can’t be consistent even though he wants to.
Elegans
Thanks Mick, yes, that was exactly what I was refering to…an interest in giving and receiving pain.
Rob. I will look forward to hearing Laurie’s ideas on things!
Susie, “finding your way” takes a lot of effort. I do remember those days! I hope this whole discussion gave you some ideas, and certainly enough varied opinions. I hope your Sunday night ‘reconnect’ left you feeling ‘connected’!
River, IMO, marriage should be fun. There’s a lot of serious things to attend to and think about…but we have to have FUN!!!
My husband simply would never want to humiliate me, and that works because I am not into humiliation. BUT, I’m going to say that if you BOTH were into it, that’s fine to incorporate into your marriage too…NOT because it should be part of Dd but because it pleases you…which means it gives you erotic pleasure. And THAT’S OK!
Elegans, I will indeed describe what we do, what we call “submission exercises” in my next post…but no, “the basic idea is adding in rules and punishments that couldn’t be easily enforced long-term, but serve a short-term purpose.” is not at all what we have chosen to do in our marriage. And as Homosexuality was also defined as ‘an illness’ until 1972 in the DSM, many if not most professionals take the idea that SM is an illness with a very huge grain of salt. The average person has no idea what the DSM is anyway, they just don’t want to be categorized as being kinky…and I firmly believe that “kink” is in the range if normal sexual interest. If it is “Safe, Sane and Consensual” it’s OK!!! We really need to grow past our Puritan roots!
Hi Sara,
To be honest, I’d never heard of DD boot camp. And you know what? If I had, I would have laughed myself silly. I mean, of course Chris and I have a sexual power exchange – that’s no secret. But EVEN SO, I can’t imagine that kickstarting a long-term approach to any sort of power exchange. That exercise you outlined above? That’s a day of play – power exchange play, whatever branch/fetish of D/s or BDSM you want to categorize it as.
Do you know what worked for us? We started with ONE RULE – and yes, it was a sexual rule. We’ve added a few over the years (and tried a few more that last a few days to a few months). Some were related to domestic harmony, and some related to making us both crazy with arousal, but the fact is that consistency is a much better enforcer than starting something that can’t be maintained past the first 24 hours.
Just my opinion, obviously, but I’d strongly discourage trying this under the mantra of DD.
s
It’s funny, Sara, how your posts seem to mirror my life. This Friday, my husband and I will begin a 21-day boot camp yet it will quite different from most boot camps. It’s designed to help establish new, permanent behaviors and the ultimate goal is to reduce and eventually, eliminate the need for discipline all together (shocker)! When we began Dd last year, we agreed from the outset that we wanted this to be a temporary situation. (I can’t imagine being a spanked grandma one day, LOL.) The boot camp (for lack of a better word) will be geared toward furthering that goal. Yes, there will be new rules for me to learn a few good habits and overcome some bad ones along with an emphasis on respecting him, however, just as we do not use maintenance now, we won’t be using random spankings then for submission’s sake. Instead, I will earn consequences the old-fashioned way. (And BTW, I’m not saying that maintenance is bad at all. Hubby just believes spankings should be earned.) The idea is for each of us to learn and practice new behaviors. For example, my husband will have much expected of him. I will create a ‘honey-do’ list that he will complete within the 21-day period. He will also focus on an improved diet designed by me. The focus during this period won’t be on discipline but on mutual respect, accountability and responsibility. Since we’ve begun living this way, every time my husband catches himself getting ready to do something that I’d get in trouble for, he modifies his behavior because he doesn’t want to be hypocritical so we hope to use this time together to rise above mediocrity. This was his idea and while I can’t say I was too happy or enthused when he announced his plan to me eight days ago, I am able to see the potential for good more with each passing day. Talk to me a week from today and I may be singing a different tune.
Despite my husband’s egalitarian nature, I’ll be the one subject to correction during this intense period.
I agree that true change must come from within and is really independent of consequences. We must want it.
Sara,
I will send a more focused response tomorrow. Thank you for bringing up the topic. I have no doubt that some people respond to ‘boot camp’ – but I think perhaps it is not specifically this method, but rather making the time, commitment and just getting started somehow that gets the ball rolling. What happens from there is really a much longer term process. I agree change happens from the inside out. Tevye thought Grant’s response was very well stated.
Elegans, It will get better and more consistent – especially if he wants it, too. It takes time and honestly, as pressing as it feels to want it to come together quickly, the time spent learning each other and growing together is something you do not want to bypass. The process is what increases the intimacy, opens you to each other and makes it yours.
Kay, I think your view – that objectively, taking a weekend to focus on one another is a good thing. In fact, I think couples should take many nights/days/ weekends as life allows. What happens during that time just doesn’t have to be so rigid and extreme.
Frankly, both Tevye and I are dyed-in-the-wool spankos, but if he had approached dd (which came later in our marriage) like a boot camp, I would have run very far away.
S,
You are wise. What Sara outlined above is similar to many a day’s play with Tevye, minus the kneeling on hard objects!
In terms of dd, his main objectives were related to maintaining health and safety and trying to get a handle on “avoidable chaos”. If only the latter was as easy as the first two.
Not all, but a defintely some, just can not come to terms with their enjoyment of BDSM. DD is somehow a more acceptable label, perhaps?
Just reading through the comments made me think of something else. If an outsider were to learn of Dd and of the reasons for maintenance spankings, submission exercises and boot camps which are basically to reinforce roles, learn consistency and submission, I have to wonder if they’d lump them all together as the same thing. IOW, I don’t think they’d view one as much different from the other. Can you break this down, Sara, and tell us the difference between these three types of exercises? Thanks.
I have seen blogs mention boot camp but when I asked questions I got no answers. Like it was something for the super secret club I am not a member of. For us, DD is about our relationship, stopping the negative before it gets out of control and building the positive. I don’t get punished very often. Not even once a month. The idea of getting spanked multiple times in a day over little stuff is not for us. I would be afraid to move and DD is NOT about fear.
Serneity, I would laugh at Boot Camp too if it were not being recommended to ‘newbies’, most who have no clue, yet, where to go or how to judge. We stared with one rule too, and it was a very good place to start!
Leni, it sounds to me like what you have laid out is simply an agreement to commit to raising the bar in your marriage. Kudos! Why call it Boot Camp at all? “Boot Camp” came from the Military model and in the Dd world involves many intense spankings a day and all sorts of arbitrary rules and intense punishments attached to it. What you have outlined does not fit that name, to my way of thinking…not that the name matters in the end…but it’s the connotation.
Golde & Tevye, thank you for sharing your wisdom. After your many years of experience, I know you know what you’re talking about! And yes, I think to many “Dd” fels more acceptable than BDSM…bc they have discomfort with the terms, the labels.
Leni (comment 2) I don’t put much stock in what an outsider would think, bc they don’t understand. I am addressing submission and submission excercises in my next post…hopefully later today.
Dragon’s Rose, anytime Dd becomes about fear, it’s abuse. Period, end of story. As for the cliques and clubs…I am sorry you experienced that. I have too. Forums tend to create that…and people get weird about who’s in and out of their club. I have long since stopped worrying about what the cool kids think, and I don’t join forums for just that reason…they just ALWAYS end up there! You can hang out with me when you feel left out…I’m not cool either!
Sara, that we do! It wouldn’t be the first time we have disagreed, and that’s okay. “DD Boot Camp is a form of sadomasochistic play”. Coming from someone who has been considering the boot camp, I’m sure you can see where my ‘don’t knock it till ya try it’ feathers got ruffled.
What I find appealing about Clint’s recommendations is that he cautions the men NOT to take advantage of their role during the boot camp. The time spent together is about strengthening them as a couple. He is strongly against humiliation of any type.
Mick, I live by the “judge not” credo. Thanks for setting me straight!
Rogue
I guess my issue with the boot camp thing is multi layered. Have we tried variations of it — sure. Is it a fun exercise –yes. Would I recommend to someone as a form of couples therapy-G-d No. First off we are spanko’s and now that we are older and busy, we are on the”inactive” list-at least socially, we still attend a christmas party with local spanko friends but that’s about it. That being said over the last 2 decades we have “played” in all kinds of ways with dominance/submission, DD, and I’m sure we have put our toes in the S/M water. Do the labels really matter??
On a bigger level, I’m speaking generally here, but I think this is what Rob was alluding to. Sara I’m curious what you think. I have difficulty with people who tout themselves as experts on this subject in to a larger audience, to the point that they profit off it. Is there a university program out there with CAGs is DD that I’m somehow missing? If one is actually a licensed mental health professional; then they are truly entering dangerous territory. If was has a license then they are bound to make recommendations based on evidence, research, not anecdotal personal experience, of what interventions one should apply. Even those of us who practice DD; know that there are no good peer reviewed articles on the subject. While I have nothing against such people personally, I guess I just find it exploitative and a little pompous that one feels entitled to profit off of their new-found knowledge–but this is America, ( In most professions after 3 years one is just at a beginning competency stages.) and present themselves as “an expert” and thus create a structure for others to follow. As far as those who follow such advice, it’s really important to think critically. Friendly advice to friends is one thing, that’s how I tend to view blog land, but if you are presenting yourself as more than that; it is important to look at the advice you are providing and how it fits with your real world profession. I’m assuming that a person who presents themselves as a professional has some real life background to justify this, because if not they are just a fraud.
Laurie
Rogue, This post was really not about Clint and he is just not on my radar, by choice. I don’t read him…but I got an email this morning that Clint (among some other stellar pieces of advice?) recommends using hot sauce on the tongue as a punishment for disrespect and cursing. Months ago, when I saw some random ‘new’ guy was starting a forum and charging, I asked myself WHO is this man and WHAT is his experience and WHAT are his credentials? I decided not to join. Self pronounced Dd Masters in the 1st place, especially with little experience or training scare me…most especially when they are making $. And regarding hot sauce, the email supplied this from Clint:
“Hot Sauce in the Mouth – This punishment is generally for things like back-talking, cursing, mild disrespect, having a bad attitude, and things of that nature. It’s exactly what it sounds like – the husband (or head of household) puts hot sauce in the mouth or on the tongue of his wife, which gives her a spicy burning sensation in her mouth. Not much more to it than that.
Hot sauce in the mouth generally serves as a reminder to remain respectful and have a constructive attitude about a given situation. Before administering this punishment, make sure the wife isn’t allergic to any ingredients in the hot sauce. Also, there is no need to dump half of the bottle in her mouth. Just a few drops will do. Her rinsing her mouth is only going to make the spicy burn worse”
…that would feel humiliating, and frankly, sounds “sadistic” to me. Again, a couple can and should do whatever they choose to…but finding multiple ways to cause pain and discomfort does not have to be the focus of Dd, and when it is, it is possibly…could just be… smoke and mirrors for BDSM ‘play’. I especially appreciate the reassurance to the HoH that his beloved wife can’t wash the burn out with water! I remember when Mr LDD (the Loving Domestic Discipline forum/blog/books) advised in his “Advanced LDD book” that the husband pee on his wife to teach her humility. Hey folks..whatever floats your boat…but is it Dd?
Laurie, I’d agree…to me at least, the labels really matter not. I also agree with your statement “I have difficulty with people who tout themselves as experts on this subject in to a larger audience, to the point that they profit off it.” Many such profiteers have come and go. “Mr. LDD” was all the rage a few years ago. He wrote books, ran a blog, had followers, made $, until he was outed as a fraud. I, like you, am a professional. I would never give advice, let alone charge for it, until I had reached a significant level of proven competence and experience. That took me years of college study, graduate study and then practice under licence supervision in the field of psychology. My clients deserved that. Now, here, I give advice on life and on Dd for free…but I still think my readers deserve a level of experience and the disclaimer that I am NOT a certified Dd counselor. There is no such thing. So my thought are my thoughts, AND, I do not charge for anything I put out here. I am very wary of anyone who would think to charge for Dd advice. “I find it exploitative and a little pompous” Me too Laurie.
Sara: Thanks for your reply. I will save my comments on submission exercises until after you’ve posted, and I look forward to seeing what you have to say of it. However, for now at least, I still think that all these things (maintenance, submission exercises, boot camp) are points on a similar spectrum, ways to define roles through somewhat artificial means. And I’m saying this as a spanko who is ok with my kink and enjoy playing games
I just know that outside this community, there’s not a very favorable view of BDSM.
Golde: (or is it Tevye?) I agree with you, but I don’t think that a “boot camp” if we ever had a chance would be a bad thing for us. We’ve talked about a lot of things together and have evolved over time, but we just don’t have the physical circumstances necessary to make it happen (right now, housemates and such make it so we rarely get any private time where we could do anything). Again, if we had a boot camp, it’d mostly be for fun. But I’d like to think that it could bring some positive benefits too.
Hi Sara,
Sorry for the double comment. I realized my mistake, and it’s because I’ve been reading too many spanking blogs for too long and I got them mixed up. You and SugarAnne have been my two favorite blogs… Anyways, because of the similar terminology, I guess, I confused her experience with a “Submission Day” (May 2010) with Grant’s “submission exercises” (as described July 2009). Those two are completely different and I am sorry to have said that you were doing something that you really weren’t!
Elegans
Sara,
Well spoken. Many of us do this to enhance our marriage not to take things overboard. Grant was right when he said he did not want to change who you are or become a full time spanker. I will never sit in a corner or kneel before my husband naked. I mean unless I want to have some sexual fun which honestly I have never fantasised about kneeling before him naked. The only person I kneel before is God to be honest. I also try to keep DD seperate from my sexual life even though it brings us closer together and more sex is a result of the lifestyle in most cases. I use DD for behaviour modification and would become insulted if the pain was used to arouse me sexually. I know that people get off to that and if that works for them great. I like you dont need pain to get an arousal. If that was the case I would look into the other forms of bondage or simply spank erotically. I stay away from websites that lead to the sexual side of spanking and some dd websites are not attractive to me. I have 4 or 5 which I follow closely and try and learn from. I will never write lines or stand in a corner. I dont want to revert to a child. If it works for others then great. You explained your view and were not judgemental to those that practice boot camp. Your reasoning in my opinion was sound and voiced my view exactly. I think that was must be temperate in all things and not carry anything overboard. Nothing done in excess in healthy. Women can be spanked all the time but in there heart they are still not submissive. Spanking for me helpe me to want to submit. It shows me that my man can overpower me and cares about me enough to go to extremes to help me give myself to him. Even using this tool if I was head strong enough and did not have a desire to submit it would not work. So boot camp like you said is a temporary fix and it is not something that provides a long term effect. Mick led me to your blog and it has been great for me. Micks blog also works for me along with stormy. I feel these blogs along with a few others are what works for me. They all have some similiarities to my life and what I am looking for in the lifestyle. I appreciate your opinion and your intellect it matches my form of thinking and thats why I follow your blog. Some people that follow you will not agree but I am on board 100 percent.
It really did help Sara…I had to leave a rather quick comment or not comment at all last night! After he and I talked, what helped most, first from your post and then as voiced in responses is the fact that he and I must be honest about this dynamic and we have to keep talking about how it is changing as we grow and learn what works for us. LOL, as you know, six months ago I would have denied a single spanko bone in my body. I still don’t like or use the word, but there are aspects of Dd and where that leads us which open doors of communication and levels of emotional intimacy which we had left closed through our marriage. We are shyly trying to open them and be honest with each other…to really know each other. It is not something we expected when we started this and so different from the what we originally saw as cause and effect. Behavior X leads to consequence Y. Yes, that still happens but it only scrapes the surface of what we now understand about Dd. And those are all my deep thoughts for the day!
Sara, in response to your last comment, my husband is ex-Marine and to him, a boot camp is an intense period of time set aside to learn new habits and break old ones through discipline (thus, the 21-days). This IS to be a boot camp in his eyes. That’s why I said it was to be different from most boot camps because I’ve read enough Dd material over the last 20 months to know what most of them entail. Like you, I’m not wild about the name itself or the practice so I had real concerns at first until Hubby laid out his ideas. I also wanted to add that although we do hope to do away with the discipline aspect of Dd one day, we can’t imagine not living this way where he leads and I follow since it works so beautifully for us. We just hope to evolve to the point where discipline won’t be necessary!
I’m not surprised at the varying responses to this post. As for me, I was curious about the concept of DD Boot Camp when I first heard about it somewhere in blogland. I don’t remember where exactly I heard about it at first actually, but I’ve seen mention of it here and there several times now. As I found out more about it and discussed it with Michael we decided that it just wasn’t for us. We’re in this for the long run, not for a quick fix. DD Boot Camp seems to me like a get rich quick scheme or a quick detox diet or something of that nature. Honestly, I see the potential for more harm than good. While Michael and I do dabble in a bit of light bdsm and Dominance/submission, we’re not interested in a Master/slave dynamic. And really, to us, that seems more like what Boot Camp is promoting. Having said that, of course I’m aware that others opinions may differ from mine, from ours, and I have no problem with that. I’m fully capable of agreeing to disagree.
Elegans, I don’t think some form of boot camp will necessarily bring negative effects. People try and do all kinds of things, and that is not a bad thing at all, IMO. I was asked the question originally by two different new Dd-ers, people in their 1st 6 months who are trying to find their way. I would not recommend any Boot Camp that I have read about to be a fruitful addition to early Dd. As for Sugar Anne’s post, I DO remember it and I remember not commenting because I had nothing positive to say. To me what they were doing was not submission exercises but again, sexual play. Remember when BabyMan lifted her dress with the end of his umbrella in public and she was supposed to accept and allow that? That’s sexual play (exhibitionism) not submissionexercises for the purpose of any long term marital gain…JUST my opinion. And I liked both of their blogs A LOT…but that does not mean we have to agree on everything. I am not part of their marriage, so my vote doesn’t count!
Patience, I think lots of different activities might work for different folks…depending on how they feel about it. My main issue with Boot Camp is that I think it is not a good jump start for new Dd-ers, it commonly focuses on humiliation and punishment, and I don’t believe that an intensive short -term experience with consistency is going to change what you do in a month or a year. I think if you have issues with consistency, you need to look into your heart, your level of commitment, the daily choices you make regarding your marriage. Ask yourself what are the connections between the daily choices you make and your long term goals. Look at what you say versus what you do. Spanking your wife four times a day for a week or a month is just not going to be a good vehicle for significant emotional growth…and that is what most of us are really going for, I think…emotional growth.
Susie, you’ve hit the nail on the head. TTWD, Dd, goes so much deeper than crime and punishment! I had no clue what we were getting into when we started either. Year one was interesting, year two was stabilizing, year three opened doors I did not even know existed. We’re in year seven, 54 and 60 years old respectively, and still learning about ourselves, each other, and the potential for intimacy and our male-female dynamic. It’s sooooo very cool!!!!
Grace, “DD Boot Camp seems to me like a get rich quick scheme or a quick detox diet or something of that nature.” Huh…interesting spin on it…and yeah, I do agree. People always want the quickie answer, the secret shortcut. It’d be nice. Sometimes there just isn’t one.
Grace, You said – “DD Boot Camp seems to me like a get rich quick scheme or a quick detox diet or something of that nature.”
… I happen to completely agree with this. A year or two does not make one an expert in anything, much less in guiding other peoples hearts and marriages, particularly when it involves a component of physical discipline. I think Sara’s post in a nutshell is – please be careful who you take advise from – most especially if they are charging for it, or making it out to sound cut/dry and formulaic.
Elegans,
… I can totally see where you and your husband might find benefit. You already have experience, a foundation – you are not going in blindly. I worry about true newcomers. I just see so much potential for damage – not that it is a given, and there are people posting here who have seen people benefit. I believe them. But let’s face it, this is deep emotional/relational territory.
Susie,
… I like and can relate to your deep thoughts.
Sara,
… IMO, DD takes a level of maturity and stability. The idea of starting slowly and cautiously to me just seems prudent, but then again, I am a member of the aged. When I was young and would jump into things with both feet, it would have been nice to have had an honest opinion advising me to think carefully and take time. I may not have listened, but sometimes those voices come back crystal clear in future decision making.
You know we came at it with a LOT of play experience. It was an advantage in that I at least knew what a spanking felt like. The emotional aspect of submitting to his leadership outside of the bedroom really took a long time for me to come to terms with. Letting go of control is both scary and freeing, and probably the most intense thing I’ve ever done.
I don’t write or blog, but you’ve laid out 5 years of the process as it has happened for you. The ups, the downs, all of it. It will resonate with some and not with others.
I really appreciate that you do write and share. Different thing will work for different people. What I like about you having put forth your opinion on this, is that the questioners are hearing many opinions from people who have no financial interest in the answers.
I so love the thoughts on this blog. I also think it’s interesting that so many have strong opinions and yet nobody who has actual experiencw with a Boot Camp has posted. Personally, I got a lot out of it this post because it seems to me just one more vehicle to apply the one-leader dynamic of a dd marriage for illustrative purposes. And, honestly, I think I picked up more of a coherent vision from this post than any other to date.
It is helping to answer the more serious question for me of how we can move to my husband being HOH in our home and yet still have a home where our kids have healthy attitudes toward relationships.
Read ‘the Submissive Wife’ although I think the title is a misnomer. I guess ‘the wife who stops trying to control everyone and everything’ didn’t fit on the book cover. I think the suggestions that the author has are a form of submission exercise e.g. let your husband pick your hairstyle, let him pay the bills even if he is not doing it the way you think it should be done (or even simply screwing it up).
I am so looking forward to your next post on submission exercises. I really think they have the potential to be so helpful. We’re finding it difficult to do this ‘on the fly’ while emotions and ingrained habits are conflicting with extemporaneous, fundamental relationship changes. Improv is clearly not our thing.
Thanks for a great post, Sara.
Ok…Sara….LOL. You have had me checking back all day! I’m going crazy here waiting to read about submission exercises! (: No, really I have enjoyed reading all of the feed back you have received on this post. Looking forward to reading your next post.
Jenn
Sara, I think you wrote an honest post basaed on the facts that you know and the opinions that you have. Can’t argue with that. I, too, have begun to ask questions from those who are more experienced with DD and marriage. I have the marriage experience (almost 22 years) but am new to DD. I have appreciated your answers to the questions and comments I have sent. Look forward to your next post.
Golde & Tevye, if nothing else, this blog is a place where I say it as I see it, and I allow others to say their views too…as long as they are not with the intent to hurt or incite. Open and respectful debate is a good thing. And if it applies, sometimes one does need to say “The emperor has no clothes!” I, like you, don’t see Boot Camp as a valuable tool for Dd. at times, to say what you think can be uncomfortable. It’s so much easier to keep things pretty, to pretend, but speaking the truth, as you honestly see it, has value. Others are always free to take what they can use and leave the rest.
Lori, I am really glad you found the post and the discussion helpful. It IS interesting that there are such strong opinions yet no one who did boot camp was willing to come forward and say just why they feel it helped them long term! The commenter’s in favor were friends of friends…interesting!
Jenn, I am so sorry! I really tried, but this post kept me hopping all day! (And then there was a nice lunch out with my husband on our day off!)
Thanks Blondie, I appreciate you letting me know!
I think I am going to close off further comments on this post (unless Grant decides to add his thoughts). My intent was to talk about my personal views on Dd Boot Camps, as I have read about them, and the results I have heard and read about from couples who have reported back over the years. I think the discussion has been fruitful and interesting. As always I suggest you investigate and decide for yourself what is best for your marriage.
Well, after reading all the comments and hearing all the different points of view, I find that everyone seems to have valid points whether I agree with them or not.
I do find it a good thing that so much discussion has been generated.
I do agree with Sara’s point of view–we are that close in our thinking–and that most assuredly is not going to change.
The following is my advice to first time DD’ers and not in any way an opinion on “Boot Camp” because, frankly, my association with the term “boot camp” is military, where you will learn behaviors that will allow your superior to send you into dangerous life-threatening situations when the whole position or other individuals are at risk. Not to “prove his or her consistency, but to save others lives. Perhaps “boot camp” is an unfortunate choice of words, but not knowing, I can only offer opinion.
I do believe in caution when starting DD. First, for safety. How do you know how hard to spank? If your spouse or significant other has never spanked or had a spanking, why go full tilt? Best to test the water first.
Apparently, from the above comments humiliation is not part of the camp, but, If you do plan to use humiliation, how do you tell if Humiliation will forever damage your relationship? How do you know what is humiliating or not? Perhaps you need DD because you have been humiliating each other for years. I would advise caution on both the above items, but for my personal opinion, I do not believe in humiliating any one at any time for any reason.
Again, that is just my opinion. Everyone is certainly entitled to theirs of course–that is the sole purpose of these blogs.
My main reason for starting DD was to have a “…peaceful and harmonious marriage, and so everything [we] did was well thought out to aim us towards that goal. That’s an individual decision each couple has to make…” to quote Sara.
Rogue, above mentions that “…ultimate goal of boot camp is to assist the husband in becoming consistent (inconsistency, anyone?) and help the wife learn to be submissive…” OK, a word on consistency:
When I talk about consistency, I am mostly referring to the following potential definitions:
Agreement or logical coherence among things or parts
Reliability or uniformity of successive results or events
Agreement or accordance with facts, form, or characteristics previously shown or stated
Conformity with previous attitudes, behavior, practice, etc.
Human nature requires boundaries from childhood on. The absence of boundaries breeds fear and instability–my job as HOH is to set boundaries and maintain them; to set security arrangements and maintain them; to set standards for myself and my family and maintain them.
Every HOH has the same duties, even if we disagree on how to go about them.
Now, I am getting boring, so I will end my comment here.
The Best to All,
Grant